We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.
And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.
Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?
Yes, the killing of civilians is never acceptable, which is why we should stand with Israel while they bomb kids.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
Gaza is blockaded, the people cannot leave. It is a prison.
Don’t believe me, take it from the Israeli Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant:
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly.” (Source)
Is it any wonder the median age in Gaza is 18 years old when this is the attitude of Israeli’s towards the whole strip? Israel has the power in this situation, this is clear from the fact that they can literally cut off these critical supplies to the entire region at will. And this is how they use that power; to indiscriminately punish the people of Gaza.
So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?
Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.
Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.
But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.
How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.
So Israel is justified in punishing civilians indiscriminately, en mass, but the same brutality from Hamas is unacceptable to you. Think that over to yourself.
If what you’re arguing for Israel is true, that they have a right to starve and kill children because of an attack, then why have Palestinians no earned that right? What makes them lesser of human rights in your mind?
Perhaps Hamas should call all their brutality “unintentional” and that will make it ok in your eyes? “Whoopsie, precisely headshot a kid. It’s the terrorists fault.”
If you’re willing to hold all of Gaza accountable for Hamas, why would all Israeli’s not be held accountable for their own brutal military? Israel is even supposedly a democracy.
These examples are from the last year, but this is not some new phenomenon. Israel has a long history of brutalizing the Palestinian people and assassinating any leaders that appear.
Imagine if Hamas went into a Jewish synagogue and treated people like this: [1], [2], [3], [4] But these are Israeli police heros fighting a brave battle against unarmed women and old men human animals, right?
How quickly was the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh swept under the rug? An unarmed journalist, shot in the back of the head by IDF. No one gives a shit.
So as Gazans and Palestinians get starved and bombed out of existence over the course of decades, tell me why they have less human rights than what you afford Israelis? You cannot argue from a humanitarian perspective for Israel and then completely flip your script when it comes to the human rights of Palestinians. You cannot hold Palestinian children to account for the actions of Hamas and then not do the same for Israeli civilians and the IDF. And if that’s unpalatable to you, perhaps consider revising your blind support for Israel’s brutal apartheid tactics.
I don’t know why this topic breaks people’s brains so hard, people will just give Israel a complete blank check to literally do whatever they want for 60 years but as soon as their chickens come home to roost it’s the Palestinian civilians fault. Suddenly they simply won’t draw any kind of distinction between Hamas and literal children when it comes to who is justifiable to punish.
And then the only way anyone can address me raising these criticisms is to assert that I’m arguing Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. But who is actually at more of risk of being wiped off the face of the earth? The Israelis with their unlimited global support, wealth and Iron Dome? Or the Gazans who are trapped in Gaza and can literally have their vital resources cut off at a moments notice?
You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.
So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.
They haven’t.
Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.
But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.
I’m simply asking you to apply the same standards you apply to Palestine to Israel. You talk about an “impossible line” for Israel, how much more impossible is the situation for Palestinians? Israel has been demolishing homes, bombing entire apartment blocks and news stations, destroying crops, shooting women, children and unarmed reporters, raiding holy sites etc. they have been doing for decades exactly what Hamas has done but on an even larger scale with more money, support and military options and with far less humanitarian cost. And yet because it’s done under the “respectable” flag of a nation state it’s all excusable, all “bad apples”.
These stories I linked, how many have you honestly even heard of from the past year? They’re a blip on the radar. By contrast, every morning for the past week the attack in Israel has been the headline from NPR to Fox, all of them reporting western governments vowing support for Israel’s campaign to cut off aid and supplies to Gazans and invade to wipe the “human animals” out. There’s been a mobilization of hundreds of thousands of Israeli military personnel, Israeli airstrikes have killed 1,200 Gazans this week. That’s NPR this morning, not “jihadist propaganda”. You can’t just handwave away the reality of profound suffering in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli regime because it’s inconvenient when it comes to trying to justify Israel’s actions.
Israel has ten times the power here, and yet you’re willing to justify their brutality and apartheid as them having no choice, instead you act like Palestine has the power to resolve this while having no assumed right to retaliate themselves or even ability to move, negotiate or govern autonomously. It’s been close to a decade since Israel refused to negotiate with even the legitimate Palestinian leadership itself. How are you suppose to believe Israel has a genuine interest in peace?
Netanyahu is the one who funded Hamas, so Israel is literally the one that created this situation. And now as they bomb the already-bombed-out rubble of Gaza, how do you see that changing the hearts and minds of Palestinians? Peace has never been the goal for Israel, it’s about colonization and genocide. They have no interest in ever living alongside Palestinians (who have just as much a right to their homeland as anyone) or creating a unified state in which Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. They’re never going to draw any distinction between Hamas and the people of Palestine, these recent events have proved that beyond any doubt.
Do they have the power to pursue peace? Yep. Will they ever? Nope. Israel either needs to leave occupied territory and remove all their settlers from Gaza and Palestine, or agree to grant Palestinians a true seat at the table as equals, not as a subclass relegated to an open air prison, not as “Hamas collaboraters” and collateral damage. This is Israel’s responsibility because, as we see, they have all the true territorial and military power here. Palestinians have none.
I’d challenge you to honestly ask yourself how would see this situation if the tables were turned, if it were a Hamas government oppressing a blockaded, starving Israeli population.
Peace has never been the goal for Israel, it’s about colonization and genocide. They have no interest in ever living alongside Palestinians<
WRONG.
They’re never going to draw any distinction between Hamas and the people of Palestine<
WRONG.
Israel either needs to leave occupied territory and remove all their settlers from Gaza<
ALL Israeli settlers WERE removed from Gaza in 2005. That’s a really big mistake to make. Can’t say I’m surprised though given how many other errors you’re making here.
This is Israel’s responsibility because, as we see, they have all the true territorial and military power here. Palestinians have none.<
WRONG. Palestinian extremists hold the most important card. And before them Arab extremists and the armies of Arab nations which refused to recognise the state of Israel. Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza didn’t bring peace. Nothing has. This crap that it’s entirely within Israel’s power ignores this reality. You have the luxury and safety to remain in that ignorance. Israelis don’t.
It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.[1]
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.[2] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.[3]
It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this.<
That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You’re far from the only one who does it, it’s VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you’ll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it’s been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.
The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade<
How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven’t heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?<
Recognition of Hamas’ agency in this. Recognition of militants’ agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists’ agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.
Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?<
And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you’re accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.
Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they’re leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.
No. You’ve been wrong on so many points, including your assessments of me.
Your blockade comment above shows your lack of understanding of what I’ve written. This week’s atrocities from Hamas are the undeniable evidence of what the blockade had previously prevented. Very different. The blockade only exists because it is necessary to reduce Palestinian militants’ ability to slaughter Israelis. Some of those militants have shown you in undeniable terms how barbarously far they will go. That you were unaware of their intentions before Saturday doesn’t mean they sprang into being recently.
Yeah, you’re continuing to be clouded by emotion. I’ll stand by that.
We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.
And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.
Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?
Yes, the killing of civilians is never acceptable, which is why we should stand with Israel while they bomb kids.
Gaza is blockaded, the people cannot leave. It is a prison.
Don’t believe me, take it from the Israeli Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant:
Is it any wonder the median age in Gaza is 18 years old when this is the attitude of Israeli’s towards the whole strip? Israel has the power in this situation, this is clear from the fact that they can literally cut off these critical supplies to the entire region at will. And this is how they use that power; to indiscriminately punish the people of Gaza.
So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?
Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.
Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.
But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.
How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.
So Israel is justified in punishing civilians indiscriminately, en mass, but the same brutality from Hamas is unacceptable to you. Think that over to yourself.
If what you’re arguing for Israel is true, that they have a right to starve and kill children because of an attack, then why have Palestinians no earned that right? What makes them lesser of human rights in your mind?
Jenin: Palestinian boy killed during Israeli assault was unarmed
Israeli military admits killing Palestinian toddler by mistake, closes initial investigation
Israeli military admits shooting 16-year-old Palestinian girl, calls it ‘unintentional’
Perhaps Hamas should call all their brutality “unintentional” and that will make it ok in your eyes? “Whoopsie, precisely headshot a kid. It’s the terrorists fault.” If you’re willing to hold all of Gaza accountable for Hamas, why would all Israeli’s not be held accountable for their own brutal military? Israel is even supposedly a democracy.
These examples are from the last year, but this is not some new phenomenon. Israel has a long history of brutalizing the Palestinian people and assassinating any leaders that appear.
Imagine if Hamas went into a Jewish synagogue and treated people like this: [1], [2], [3], [4] But these are Israeli police heros fighting a brave battle against
unarmed women and old menhuman animals, right?How quickly was the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh swept under the rug? An unarmed journalist, shot in the back of the head by IDF. No one gives a shit.
So as Gazans and Palestinians get starved and bombed out of existence over the course of decades, tell me why they have less human rights than what you afford Israelis? You cannot argue from a humanitarian perspective for Israel and then completely flip your script when it comes to the human rights of Palestinians. You cannot hold Palestinian children to account for the actions of Hamas and then not do the same for Israeli civilians and the IDF. And if that’s unpalatable to you, perhaps consider revising your blind support for Israel’s brutal apartheid tactics.
I don’t know why this topic breaks people’s brains so hard, people will just give Israel a complete blank check to literally do whatever they want for 60 years but as soon as their chickens come home to roost it’s the Palestinian civilians fault. Suddenly they simply won’t draw any kind of distinction between Hamas and literal children when it comes to who is justifiable to punish.
And then the only way anyone can address me raising these criticisms is to assert that I’m arguing Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. But who is actually at more of risk of being wiped off the face of the earth? The Israelis with their unlimited global support, wealth and Iron Dome? Or the Gazans who are trapped in Gaza and can literally have their vital resources cut off at a moments notice?
You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.
So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.
They haven’t.
Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.
But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.
I’m simply asking you to apply the same standards you apply to Palestine to Israel. You talk about an “impossible line” for Israel, how much more impossible is the situation for Palestinians? Israel has been demolishing homes, bombing entire apartment blocks and news stations, destroying crops, shooting women, children and unarmed reporters, raiding holy sites etc. they have been doing for decades exactly what Hamas has done but on an even larger scale with more money, support and military options and with far less humanitarian cost. And yet because it’s done under the “respectable” flag of a nation state it’s all excusable, all “bad apples”.
These stories I linked, how many have you honestly even heard of from the past year? They’re a blip on the radar. By contrast, every morning for the past week the attack in Israel has been the headline from NPR to Fox, all of them reporting western governments vowing support for Israel’s campaign to cut off aid and supplies to Gazans and invade to wipe the “human animals” out. There’s been a mobilization of hundreds of thousands of Israeli military personnel, Israeli airstrikes have killed 1,200 Gazans this week. That’s NPR this morning, not “jihadist propaganda”. You can’t just handwave away the reality of profound suffering in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli regime because it’s inconvenient when it comes to trying to justify Israel’s actions.
Israel has ten times the power here, and yet you’re willing to justify their brutality and apartheid as them having no choice, instead you act like Palestine has the power to resolve this while having no assumed right to retaliate themselves or even ability to move, negotiate or govern autonomously. It’s been close to a decade since Israel refused to negotiate with even the legitimate Palestinian leadership itself. How are you suppose to believe Israel has a genuine interest in peace?
Netanyahu is the one who funded Hamas, so Israel is literally the one that created this situation. And now as they bomb the already-bombed-out rubble of Gaza, how do you see that changing the hearts and minds of Palestinians? Peace has never been the goal for Israel, it’s about colonization and genocide. They have no interest in ever living alongside Palestinians (who have just as much a right to their homeland as anyone) or creating a unified state in which Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. They’re never going to draw any distinction between Hamas and the people of Palestine, these recent events have proved that beyond any doubt.
Do they have the power to pursue peace? Yep. Will they ever? Nope. Israel either needs to leave occupied territory and remove all their settlers from Gaza and Palestine, or agree to grant Palestinians a true seat at the table as equals, not as a subclass relegated to an open air prison, not as “Hamas collaboraters” and collateral damage. This is Israel’s responsibility because, as we see, they have all the true territorial and military power here. Palestinians have none.
I’d challenge you to honestly ask yourself how would see this situation if the tables were turned, if it were a Hamas government oppressing a blockaded, starving Israeli population.
WRONG.
WRONG.
ALL Israeli settlers WERE removed from Gaza in 2005. That’s a really big mistake to make. Can’t say I’m surprised though given how many other errors you’re making here.
WRONG. Palestinian extremists hold the most important card. And before them Arab extremists and the armies of Arab nations which refused to recognise the state of Israel. Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza didn’t bring peace. Nothing has. This crap that it’s entirely within Israel’s power ignores this reality. You have the luxury and safety to remain in that ignorance. Israelis don’t.
Hamas isn’t Palestine.
It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.[1]
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.[2] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.[3]
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ ↩︎
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 ↩︎
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-palestinian-enclave-under-israeli-assault ↩︎
That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You’re far from the only one who does it, it’s VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you’ll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it’s been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.
How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven’t heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.
Recognition of Hamas’ agency in this. Recognition of militants’ agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists’ agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.
And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you’re accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.
Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they’re leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.
deleted by creator
No. You’ve been wrong on so many points, including your assessments of me.
Your blockade comment above shows your lack of understanding of what I’ve written. This week’s atrocities from Hamas are the undeniable evidence of what the blockade had previously prevented. Very different. The blockade only exists because it is necessary to reduce Palestinian militants’ ability to slaughter Israelis. Some of those militants have shown you in undeniable terms how barbarously far they will go. That you were unaware of their intentions before Saturday doesn’t mean they sprang into being recently.
Yeah, you’re continuing to be clouded by emotion. I’ll stand by that.