Ah, the classic thought terminators. Add eating babies and pets next while youre just saying shit. But while we’re on the subject of atrocity: do you think nazis might do those things? To, let’s say roughly 13,000 people? What do you think should be done in a situation like that?
There are fascists in Russia, too. Russia and Putin strongly express elements of fascism. Putin does not care about Nazis in Ukraine. They were invoked as an excuse to justify the invasion.
Your apologetics for atrocities is really disgusting.
A carnival of excuses for the nazis actually running the show in Ukraine. Its interesting that you act like this war began out of nowhere, and ignore the 13,000 Ukranian civilians murdered by their own government for being “too Russian”. Your apologetics for atrocities is really disgusting.
Both sides of the conflict are indictable, but atrocities cannot be excused on the same basis as war.
Please clarify “13,000 Ukranian civilians murdered by their own government”. Casualties in conflict are not murder, much less murder committed by the “by their own government”, even if the conflict could have been avoided.
The Banderites, after taking power and restricting things like the Russian language, responded to Donetsk and Luhansk seceding by shelling them, killing 13,000+ civilians between 2014 and 2022. Have a Reuters link and a link to OSCE itself. Toss in Human Rights Watch for good measure. Plenty of good sources. The point is that this same Banderite regime had amassed a ton of forces in the Donbass region and dramatically increased shelling in 2022, which prompted the DPR and LPR to request aid from Russia, to which they accepted.
The osce and hrw links say nothing casualties. The hrw strongly suggests that the shelling of a working kindergarten was done by russian backed separatists.
The Reuters article does back your number, buslt doesn’t suggest a campaign of ethnic cleansing by either side
I provided sources going over the fact that constant shelling has occured and resulted in civilian deaths, not just on the raw number. Further:
Russia-backed armed groups in the Luhansk region and the Ukrainian government blamed each other for the attack. Several military experts, including the open source media group Bellingcat, said that the spray pattern from the impact crater from the shell in the yard was consistent with the attack coming from the south, the direction of Russia-backed armed groups’ positions.
Both Russia and Ukraine have committed war crimes, sure. Russia isn’t socialist any longer and isn’t exactly a moral paragon. However, letting the Banderites walk into Donetsk and Luhansk and slaughter them would have been a humanitarian disaster.
Bro, lemmy is overrun by this shit… It’s so disheartening. I just got banned from posting in memes for arguing that Ukraine’s far right problem is as nuanced as the US’s… Russian propaganda is a fucking cancer on the world.
All we can do is push back with facts. Invariably, their arguments devolve into whataboutism and name-calling because they know there aren’t any facts that back up their bullshit.
As long as they’re the ones crashing out, we come out of those interactions looking better than they do.
That a patch makes the massacre of women and children excusable? Somehow a piece of fabric makes it okay to kill civilians?
IF that guy is actually wearing that patch, fine. Prosecute him. Doesn’t excuse, justify, or invalidate the MOUNTAIN of evidence of Russian war crimes.
“It’s just a piece of fabric bro! How dare you invade Germany Ukraine!”
If a nazi army is massacring thousands of people, they should be stopped, right?
“Oh but Russia-”
Cease your whataboutism, you useful idiot. The Russian intervention in Ukraine has been characterized by an aversion to civillian casualties unseen in modern wars, magnitudes less than the US invasion of Iraq, for example. My Arma buddy in Odessa still has power, heating and clean water, something the RF could and would easily remove if they were actually waging a war against Ukraine’s people. You have to pretend otherwise though, you have to pretend they’re doing what Ukraine’s ally Israel is doing, because that’s the only way you can justify cheering for seig heiling, terror bombing, raping, torturing, for-the-glory-of-the-white-race fucking neo nazis. Your willful ignorance is pathetic, and one day you and every other morally vacuous imperialist will pretend you were always against this.
Nobody has stated that Russia doesn’t have Nazis. The difference is that the Nazis in Russia aren’t at the levers of power in the government, nationalists are, while in Kiev the Banderites folded in Nazis officially and use fascist imagery at a state level.
Groups like Azov have been folded in officially. The Kiev regime upholds Stepan Bandera and uses likeness for propaganda. Nazis infest Ukrainian leadership:
The east supported Yanukovych, and that’s why the far-right Banderites couping him kicked off the war.
You see comrade, when they take out of context screenshots it’s good. But when you document Nazis in Russia that Nazis support, that’s false revolution and you must be purged.
You seem to think the word ‘facts’ means to call anyone who demonstrates wrongthink a pernicious scheming (((russian))) so I don’t think you look as good as you think you do
Ukraine has institutionalized fascists that uphold Bandera, that banned all left parties, dissolve unions and privatize everything for western capital (textbook facism)
Putins Russia is right wing but doesn’t have the same amount institutionalized facism
I don’t subscribe to your great man theory understanding of politics. If Putin would suddenly decide to use the financial system to take the money and leave, or use it to feed the poor he’d get replaced by the Russian oligarchs
None of these mention rape, we all know you just threw that one in there to bolster your “the enemy is animals who cannot be reasoned with” claim. Same as Israel did with Hamas: pretend the other side is made of of mindless monsters so that anything your side does, no matter how fascist, is part of an existential struggle and therefore totally justified.
I appreciate the olive branch, but this is a thought-terminating cliche that serves to obscure understanding rather than advance it. What does wrong mean in the context of a war? A war is the end result of a series of actions and reactions that have no relation to what we think of as right or wrong. When two chemicals react violently with each other, which one is “wrong”?
Ah, the classic thought terminators. Add eating babies and pets next while youre just saying shit. But while we’re on the subject of atrocity: do you think nazis might do those things? To, let’s say roughly 13,000 people? What do you think should be done in a situation like that?
There are fascists in Russia, too. Russia and Putin strongly express elements of fascism. Putin does not care about Nazis in Ukraine. They were invoked as an excuse to justify the invasion.
Your apologetics for atrocities is really disgusting.
Whataboutism
A carnival of excuses for the nazis actually running the show in Ukraine. Its interesting that you act like this war began out of nowhere, and ignore the 13,000 Ukranian civilians murdered by their own government for being “too Russian”. Your apologetics for atrocities is really disgusting.
By the way, what do you think the reason for the invasion is? Some braindead shit about “more land” or “wanting to bring back the soviet union”? Or are you so immersed in an action movie reality that you don’t even wonder, because there are simply Good Guys and Bad Guys?
Both sides of the conflict are indictable, but atrocities cannot be excused on the same basis as war.
Please clarify “13,000 Ukranian civilians murdered by their own government”. Casualties in conflict are not murder, much less murder committed by the “by their own government”, even if the conflict could have been avoided.
he’s talking about the campaign of ethnic cleansing your heroes were committing before the war started that led to the war
don’t know how the fuck you twist your brain into not calling it murder, but you are defending an openly nazi government after all
Who are my heroes?
Regardless, please clarify “the campaign of ethnic cleansing”.
What word do you need sounded out? What are you confused about? What needs clarification?
You were told the thing. Maybe punch it into duck duck go instead of folding your arms and digging your heels in.
Like the burden of you learning what you’re taking a strong fucking stand on should fall on the people you’re being oppositional towards.
The ones you slava
Identifying a few factions, dates, and names of the events would be a solid way to respond to a request for clarification.
Do you describe the Second World War as “bad thing where people died”, or could you think of more details that elucidate the events?
The Banderites, after taking power and restricting things like the Russian language, responded to Donetsk and Luhansk seceding by shelling them, killing 13,000+ civilians between 2014 and 2022. Have a Reuters link and a link to OSCE itself. Toss in Human Rights Watch for good measure. Plenty of good sources. The point is that this same Banderite regime had amassed a ton of forces in the Donbass region and dramatically increased shelling in 2022, which prompted the DPR and LPR to request aid from Russia, to which they accepted.
The osce and hrw links say nothing casualties. The hrw strongly suggests that the shelling of a working kindergarten was done by russian backed separatists.
The Reuters article does back your number, buslt doesn’t suggest a campaign of ethnic cleansing by either side
I provided sources going over the fact that constant shelling has occured and resulted in civilian deaths, not just on the raw number. Further:
Actual examination of shelling shows that it’s Kiev that’s guilty. The HRW reports on the shelling and humanitarian impact, while playing vague at who actually was guilty.
Ukraine represses separatist movements, just like Russia and every other state.
How does it bear on Russia having committed atrocities?
Oh, there was a separatist movement? How come, why did all those people all decide to separate?
I bet it was those dirty lying russians tricking them into not wanting to be killed by fascists
Both Russia and Ukraine have committed war crimes, sure. Russia isn’t socialist any longer and isn’t exactly a moral paragon. However, letting the Banderites walk into Donetsk and Luhansk and slaughter them would have been a humanitarian disaster.
Oh so you’re saying they’ll start eating babies and pets too if they try to strike Putin’s house. Ok got it.
“Independent Legal Analysis of the Russian Federation’s Breaches of the Genocide Convention in Ukraine and the Duty to Prevent”
‘Знищують за те, що українці’. Правники та дипломати наголошують на геноциді в Бучі, " They are being destroyed because they are Ukrainians"
“Russia’s Bucha ‘Facts’ Versus the Evidence”
“Russia/Ukraine: Invasion of Ukraine is an act of aggression and human rights catastrophe”
“War crimes, indiscriminate attacks on infrastructure, systematic and widespread torture show disregard for civilians, says UN Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine”
Bro, lemmy is overrun by this shit… It’s so disheartening. I just got banned from posting in memes for arguing that Ukraine’s far right problem is as nuanced as the US’s… Russian propaganda is a fucking cancer on the world.
All we can do is push back with facts. Invariably, their arguments devolve into whataboutism and name-calling because they know there aren’t any facts that back up their bullshit.
As long as they’re the ones crashing out, we come out of those interactions looking better than they do.
Soooo, what are you asserting by this photo?
That a patch makes the massacre of women and children excusable? Somehow a piece of fabric makes it okay to kill civilians?
IF that guy is actually wearing that patch, fine. Prosecute him. Doesn’t excuse, justify, or invalidate the MOUNTAIN of evidence of Russian war crimes.
Your whataboutism is utterly staggering.
“It’s just a piece of fabric bro! How dare you invade
GermanyUkraine!”If a nazi army is massacring thousands of people, they should be stopped, right?
“Oh but Russia-”
Cease your whataboutism, you useful idiot. The Russian intervention in Ukraine has been characterized by an aversion to civillian casualties unseen in modern wars, magnitudes less than the US invasion of Iraq, for example. My Arma buddy in Odessa still has power, heating and clean water, something the RF could and would easily remove if they were actually waging a war against Ukraine’s people. You have to pretend otherwise though, you have to pretend they’re doing what Ukraine’s ally Israel is doing, because that’s the only way you can justify cheering for seig heiling, terror bombing, raping, torturing, for-the-glory-of-the-white-race fucking neo nazis. Your willful ignorance is pathetic, and one day you and every other morally vacuous imperialist will pretend you were always against this.
You seem to think it gives the people who wear it permission
Whataboutism is when you talk about the thing we’re talking about and not the thing I’m trying to divert to
It’s not just a meaningless mouth noise I use to stop having to engage. I’m a real person not an npc
“I’m a real person not an NPC!”
Someone sounds upset. I would imagine the cognitive dissonance of trying to defend genocide gets pretty stressful after a while.
You have my sympathies.
It probably does, luckily you won’t have to defend nazis for too much longer
Libs be like “Everything is genocide except for actual genocide, which is c o m p l I c a t e d”
Free Palestine
my parting shot is about your lack of willingness to engage in good faith
your paring shot is just weepy passive aggression
we are not the same
And you were accusing other people of having nothing but whataboutism and name-calling
RUSSIAN
RUSSIAN
RUSSIAN
RUSSIAN
RUSSIAN
Nobody has stated that Russia doesn’t have Nazis. The difference is that the Nazis in Russia aren’t at the levers of power in the government, nationalists are, while in Kiev the Banderites folded in Nazis officially and use fascist imagery at a state level.
From davel’s compilation, again:
Groups like Azov have been folded in officially. The Kiev regime upholds Stepan Bandera and uses likeness for propaganda. Nazis infest Ukrainian leadership:
The east supported Yanukovych, and that’s why the far-right Banderites couping him kicked off the war.
You see comrade, when they take out of context screenshots it’s good. But when you document Nazis in Russia that Nazis support, that’s false revolution and you must be purged.
use words
You responded to evidence of Ukrainian Nazis by deflecting to Russia, and then you accuse other people of whataboutism
I am asserting that simping for Hitler worshipping goose steppers does not, in fact, make you look better than us
You seem to think the word ‘facts’ means to call anyone who demonstrates wrongthink a pernicious scheming (((russian))) so I don’t think you look as good as you think you do
Lemmy was created by communists, the communists have been here since the start of Lemmy.
You’re right, which is why I want both of them to lose.
Literally saying out loud you got banned for doing nazi apologia and acting like people should be outraged for your cause
Lemmy is indeed fucking overrun with this shit
I’m not apologizing for nazis. The fuck are you talking about?
Listen you need to shut the fuck up about the nazis running the country I am doing war crime apologia for because
I t ’ s C o m p l i c a t e d
OMG FUCK YOU SAYING I’M DEFENDING NAZIS
and scene
Just like Israel! It’s c o m p l I c a t e d! But anyway have I told you how
HamasRussia is worse??Based mods. And fuck off if you’re trying to normalize facism
Fuck fascism.
Ukraine is not fascist… Putin’s Russia is…
Ukraine has institutionalized fascists that uphold Bandera, that banned all left parties, dissolve unions and privatize everything for western capital (textbook facism)
Putins Russia is right wing but doesn’t have the same amount institutionalized facism
Russia’s entire financial system goes through one man. That’s the definition of fascism…
I don’t subscribe to your great man theory understanding of politics. If Putin would suddenly decide to use the financial system to take the money and leave, or use it to feed the poor he’d get replaced by the Russian oligarchs
I don’t think we’ve had enough of a discussion for you to know my political theory. Sus canned response. Take care.
None of these mention rape, we all know you just threw that one in there to bolster your “the enemy is animals who cannot be reasoned with” claim. Same as Israel did with Hamas: pretend the other side is made of of mindless monsters so that anything your side does, no matter how fascist, is part of an existential struggle and therefore totally justified.
Chill both sides can be wrong, that is normally the case in war.
I appreciate the olive branch, but this is a thought-terminating cliche that serves to obscure understanding rather than advance it. What does wrong mean in the context of a war? A war is the end result of a series of actions and reactions that have no relation to what we think of as right or wrong. When two chemicals react violently with each other, which one is “wrong”?
Russia really did do the atrocious things you’re pretending to not be aware of.