Iraq condemned the burning of a copy of the Koran in front of its embassy in Denmark on Monday and said Danish staff at the embassy in Baghdad had left the country after protests there, while Copenhagen said it had "not withdrawn from Iraq".
What’s not okay: To expect others to submit to rules of your worldview. Especially if others do not share this view or agree to the rule.
You have the right to believe whatever you like, but don’t expect me to follow. Because I have the same right.
This applies to acts which do not harm anybody or anything, like destroying a copy of a book which you own, without eradicating the book from existence or taking it from others.
Otherwise, we play the victim game. I can do that too! Look, I’m an atheist. This is a very serious thing for me. I feel appalled by the idea that more than 200 years after the enlightenment (just to name one of many reasons), people still believe and share religious ideas. The abrahamic scriptures are riddled with hate speech and endorsements of violence. To call these text collections ‘holy’ is an insult to everything I hold dear, like science and human rights. I’m offended by their mere existence, and perceive public displays as a personal offense to my worldview. I demand everybody in every country to respect my feelings and stop these atrocious acts.
Of course the sane alternative would be to thicken my skin, learn to deal with my emotions (which means I deal with them, not externalizing), respect differences as long as they do no harm.
These book burnings only exist because people make an unjustified fuzz about it, occasionally in a violent way. You can have your religion with all it’s rules, but you cannot expect people to apply who don’t subscribe.
Yeah book burnings are totally an affirmation of free and open discussion and in no way reflects a deeply seated intolerance. Countries with regular book burnings are bastions of freedom.
I don’t think that they were advocating book burnings rather than trying to point out that the burnings are an act of provocation to which the best and most mature reaction would be ignoring them.
I don’t think that’s true, at least for book burnings more generally. Ignoring such acts lends them power, and implies that it is acceptable, and leaves open the possibility of further burnings. To burn a book is a profoundly anti-intellectual action, regardless of one’s set of justifications, and regardless of the content of what one is burning. To allow such acts to continue unchallenged is to allow a festering wound to poison the bloodstream of a society.
Ignoring such acts lends them power, and implies that it is acceptable, and leaves open the possibility of further burnings.
This is exactly my worry, just applied to “setting religious rules for people outside your religion”.
To burn a book is a profoundly anti-intellectual action, regardless of one’s set of justifications, and regardless of the content of what one is burning.
There exist many ways to burn a book with very different implications. Let’s look at three of them:
Nazi style: The attempt of intellectual genocide. The goal is to eradicate certain book(s) from existence, at least locally. In that logic, it ‘makes sense’ to steal these books from others, so that no private copy survives. Similarly, since you actually want to remove ideas from existence, it can ‘make sense’ to also kill people who hold ideas, because people, like books, serve as a storage medium for these ideas.
Protest: A provocative show to resist the threat to your own human rights. The goal is to demonstrate “your rights end where mine begin”. In that logic, it is necessary to respect property, rights and life of others. So you only burn what you own, and have neither intent nor make attempt to remove all copies of that book from existence. In some cases, people even create their own copies merely for destroying them (which still causes outrage). The goal is not to alter the amount of available copies.
Garbage: A task so mundane few would even think about it. We regularly destroy books without batting an eye, because someone threw them in the trash, because no one bought them, or other economic or practical reasons. In this case, they are removed not because someone cares about them, but because no one cares about them.
Wether the removal of the book is what you describe, depends entirely on intention and implementation. You are right for one specific case, and it is good to be aware of it and defend against it, to not repeat these dark chapters of history. However, all other cases have different characteristics and do not deserve the same conclusion.
There is a common ground between #1 and #2. A profoundly anti-intellectual attitude; dogma. Nazi-style book burnings are meant to force a view on others, if ‘necessary’ by brutal physical force. Some reactions to Quran burnings reveal the same mindset. One group feels so superior and entitled that they try to impose their view on others, make them submit to their rules. If necessary, by brutal physical force.
Funny, because there are over a billion Muslim people who don’t try to force their beliefs on others.
So if we can do things based on the actions of a few extremists, then given that definitively Christianity is the most violent religion in known history, both contemporary and historically, where are the Bible burnings? If they’re being consistent, singling out Islam wouldn’t be a thing. I
Or we can recognize that this is an inherently reactionary “protest” that does nothing but antagonize people who otherwise would have likely no problem with you. It’s New Atheism to the max. Thinking that one is so enlightened that being disrespectful to other groups is not only acceptable, but necessary. You catch more flies with honey than burning books.
Funny, because there are over a billion Muslim people who don’t try to force their beliefs on others.
Yes. With about 2 billion overall, it’s probably more. If I generalized I apologize for that, I didn’t mean to. Though I don’t think I have?
So if we can do things based on the actions of a few extremists, then given that definitively Christianity is the most violent religion in known history, both contemporary and historically, where are the Bible burnings?
If burning Bibles would cause violent outbursts up to burning buildings and killing people, the same logic would apply. But since there is no such reaction (as far as I know), there is no need for that provocation. People will frown and condemn and move on.
antagonize people who otherwise would have likely no problem with you.
I don’t trust a peace which only holds as long as you live by the arbitrary rules of another religion. But I understand this is subjective, and accept your opinion. We don’t need to agree.
I think the difference is if it’s the State burning the books because they are “dangerous” and the State doesn’t want you to read it then that speaks of fascism. If it is citizens/civilians burning a book, that they own, because of some personal desire to express themselves then it’s their expression.
Maybe they are expressiomlns of hate, but a citizen expressing that is different than the State expressing that. One has more power over the other.
The Nazi book burnings were conducted by the German Student Union primarily, not the state. Just as it is in Florida, and just as it is here in this instance, book burnings are primarily perpetrated by ideologues, not the state.
What’s not okay: To expect others to submit to rules of your worldview. Especially if others do not share this view or agree to the rule.
You have the right to believe whatever you like, but don’t expect me to follow. Because I have the same right.
This applies to acts which do not harm anybody or anything, like destroying a copy of a book which you own, without eradicating the book from existence or taking it from others.
Otherwise, we play the victim game. I can do that too! Look, I’m an atheist. This is a very serious thing for me. I feel appalled by the idea that more than 200 years after the enlightenment (just to name one of many reasons), people still believe and share religious ideas. The abrahamic scriptures are riddled with hate speech and endorsements of violence. To call these text collections ‘holy’ is an insult to everything I hold dear, like science and human rights. I’m offended by their mere existence, and perceive public displays as a personal offense to my worldview. I demand everybody in every country to respect my feelings and stop these atrocious acts.
Of course the sane alternative would be to thicken my skin, learn to deal with my emotions (which means I deal with them, not externalizing), respect differences as long as they do no harm.
These book burnings only exist because people make an unjustified fuzz about it, occasionally in a violent way. You can have your religion with all it’s rules, but you cannot expect people to apply who don’t subscribe.
Yeah book burnings are totally an affirmation of free and open discussion and in no way reflects a deeply seated intolerance. Countries with regular book burnings are bastions of freedom.
There’s a huge difference between a “book burning” and “burning a single book”
I don’t think that they were advocating book burnings rather than trying to point out that the burnings are an act of provocation to which the best and most mature reaction would be ignoring them.
I don’t think that’s true, at least for book burnings more generally. Ignoring such acts lends them power, and implies that it is acceptable, and leaves open the possibility of further burnings. To burn a book is a profoundly anti-intellectual action, regardless of one’s set of justifications, and regardless of the content of what one is burning. To allow such acts to continue unchallenged is to allow a festering wound to poison the bloodstream of a society.
This is exactly my worry, just applied to “setting religious rules for people outside your religion”.
There exist many ways to burn a book with very different implications. Let’s look at three of them:
Wether the removal of the book is what you describe, depends entirely on intention and implementation. You are right for one specific case, and it is good to be aware of it and defend against it, to not repeat these dark chapters of history. However, all other cases have different characteristics and do not deserve the same conclusion.
There is a common ground between #1 and #2. A profoundly anti-intellectual attitude; dogma. Nazi-style book burnings are meant to force a view on others, if ‘necessary’ by brutal physical force. Some reactions to Quran burnings reveal the same mindset. One group feels so superior and entitled that they try to impose their view on others, make them submit to their rules. If necessary, by brutal physical force.
Funny, because there are over a billion Muslim people who don’t try to force their beliefs on others.
So if we can do things based on the actions of a few extremists, then given that definitively Christianity is the most violent religion in known history, both contemporary and historically, where are the Bible burnings? If they’re being consistent, singling out Islam wouldn’t be a thing. I
Or we can recognize that this is an inherently reactionary “protest” that does nothing but antagonize people who otherwise would have likely no problem with you. It’s New Atheism to the max. Thinking that one is so enlightened that being disrespectful to other groups is not only acceptable, but necessary. You catch more flies with honey than burning books.
Yes. With about 2 billion overall, it’s probably more. If I generalized I apologize for that, I didn’t mean to. Though I don’t think I have?
If burning Bibles would cause violent outbursts up to burning buildings and killing people, the same logic would apply. But since there is no such reaction (as far as I know), there is no need for that provocation. People will frown and condemn and move on.
I don’t trust a peace which only holds as long as you live by the arbitrary rules of another religion. But I understand this is subjective, and accept your opinion. We don’t need to agree.
I think the difference is if it’s the State burning the books because they are “dangerous” and the State doesn’t want you to read it then that speaks of fascism. If it is citizens/civilians burning a book, that they own, because of some personal desire to express themselves then it’s their expression.
Maybe they are expressiomlns of hate, but a citizen expressing that is different than the State expressing that. One has more power over the other.
The Nazi book burnings were conducted by the German Student Union primarily, not the state. Just as it is in Florida, and just as it is here in this instance, book burnings are primarily perpetrated by ideologues, not the state.
Thanks for the correction.
No worries. Together we are stronger! 💪