• Lauchs@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Yeah but deciding not to vote for Biden just feels like a good trendy way to express my sympathies with Palestineans… /s

    • Kiryu@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I hope this gets posted in all the leftist boards. People need to understand Biden is a continuation of the United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide. Biden has shown he can at least be pressured into taking minor steps in the right direction. Being able to claim moral purity at the expense of a genocided Palestine will ring pretty hollow.

      • jkrtn@lemmy.ml
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        9 months ago

        Looking forward to what the Republicans cosplaying as leftists use instead of “genocide Joe” now that Donald is calling for a final solution.

        • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Pick one:

          • Geriatric Joe, the president too senile to make up his mind on which side to support.

          • Gray-area Joe, the weak president that refuses to take a stance on foreign affairs.

          • Bystander Biden, the president that did nothing to end the Israel-Palestine war.

          And so forth. They’ll always find some other stupid thing to blame him for.

        • daltotron@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Along with what everyone else is saying, I think they could probably still try to make an attempt at taking like, a false moral position, along the lines of an accelerationism-style “oh, well, trump seeking to escalate the war would end it more quickly, thus, saving more lives in the long run” kind of thing. Obviously based on kind of false pretenses, but then, I think a lot of their political positions kind of assume war and resource extraction as an inevitability, and power as an ultimate moral good, on a deeper level, and the fascism and propaganda mind games they play are just kind of a stupid extension of that.

        • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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          9 months ago

          Its not republicans, its russian shills/bots… ok wait… yeah, guess ur right.

          And for the life of me, his correct name that ive been pushing since 2019, is Status Quo Joe. It was an insult then, cant believe its a vague defense now.

      • Wrench@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Plus the fact that Biden is definitively anti Ukrainian genocide, and Trump would not only pull US support of Ukraine, he would actively try to discourage NATO

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I mean if we start talking about all the horrible things that will happen under a Trump presidency, we’ll never stop.

          Until the men with guns put black bags over our heads and shove us into vans in the middle of the night.

        • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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          9 months ago

          The “ppl” pushing the narrative ur complaining about arent on Ukraines side, nor or they on the side of NATO. Theyre busy convincing everyone they can that literally all western news is propaganda and the only true news will come from state sources in russia, china, etc.

          The goal when engaging that side should, for the sane, anyway, always be not to convert the person ur speaking to, bc even if they arent bots/shills, their bad faith arguments turn aggressive incredibly quickly. Instead, the goal should be to demonstrate to the onlookers the absurdness of the tankie’s position, and who it benefits/who is responsible for fabricating the position in the first place.

          • Sybil@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Theyre busy convincing everyone they can that literally all western news is propaganda and the only true news will come from state sources in russia, china, etc.

            you made this up

      • SevenOfWine@startrek.website
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        9 months ago

        I mean, Biden absolutely is wishy washy.

        But he also reversed Trump’s policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.

        Obviously Gaza’s really bad, but what’s happened and happening in the West Bank is also arguably ethnic cleansing. Chasing Palestinians off their land. Trump’s a fan.

        • beardown@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          But he also reversed Trump’s policy of saying West Bank settlement is legal, and sanctioned violent Israeli settlers.

          Israel announced this month that they are authorizing the creation of increased settlements in the West Bank.

          https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-plans-build-3300-new-settlement-homes-response-107484561

          If Biden used the power of the United States to stop this and to undo the existing illegal settlements then he would deserve credit. He will never choose to do this though. This is because Biden, and all mainstream Democrats and Republicans, are Zionists who believe Israel should not be forcibly prevented from expanding its current borders.

          Trump is worse. But mainstream politicians are also horrific. It is equivalent to the choice between the gradualist death by a thousand cuts used by John Roberts vs the immediate exercise of power used by Samuel Alito. Either way, liberty and morality will be destroyed.

          We need to demand better as American citizens. No one else can correct the United States but us

      • beardown@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        Biden is a continuation of the United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide.

        If these are the only options that our system offers us, then why shouldn’t we demand our system be replaced?

        Democrats are inadequate, Republicans are worse. If this is the only choice available within the United States, then why do we citizens allow the United States to continue?

      • Patapon Enjoyer@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians

        Wishy-washy policies is my favorite way to say “apartheid ethnostate”

      • Wogi@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I have a strict “no genocide” policy. Candidates that promote, endorse, allow, or sit idly by and let others do genocide are gonna be a no go from me.

        It’s not going to change unless we make demands.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Numbnutz, clown, shill. Very convincing rhetoric. If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted had heard these eloquent shibboleths, surely they would have changed their minds.

            • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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              9 months ago

              Do what you want in the primaries. That is the time for it (although not voting doesn’t do anything still). We are obviously talking about the general.

            • beardown@lemm.ee
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              9 months ago

              If the 100,000 in Michigan who voted uncommitted

              Not to mention the 19% of voters in Minnesota who voted uncommitted

          • Patapon Enjoyer@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            How about you make demands all the time instead of only when it’s politically convenient for people who don’t give a shit?

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I have a strict “no genocide” policy.

          That’s not one of the options though. You get to pick which genocide. You either get restrained genocide, or full genocide with a side of dismantling American democracy.

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Happily, and I’ll teach them how to do the same, when necessary. Unlike your parents apparently.

              Sometimes there’s no good choice, only bad and worse. That’s how life works and I’m sad your parents never prepared you for that.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                Sometimes there’s no good choice

                Why?

                And what conclusions can be drawn about who does and does not hold power in the United States?

                And what should be done to the United States to correct this?

            • skeptomatic@lemmy.ca
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              9 months ago

              You mean critical thinking?
              As soon as it’s assured Trump loses, and the subsequent cou de tat is quelled, you can all camp the White House front lawn and shake the fences, throw red paint, call old Biden an accessory to murder. Fill your boots.

              But not before.

              Balancing on the tightrope with hell yawning below, is hardly the time to consider changing your shoelaces.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                As soon as it’s assured Trump loses, and the subsequent cou de tat is quelled, you can all camp the White House front lawn and shake the fences, throw red paint, call old Biden an accessory to murder. Fill your boots.

                None of that will cause any structural change, which is why it is permitted

                How can we reshape the United States such that genocide is never permitted again?

                • beardown@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  That sounds bad. But you have to remember that they’re brown and Muslim. Which means it’s OK.

                  Fish don’t have any feelings, which makes it ok to eat them. Same logic applies here.

                  Remember to vote blue no matter who. And always remember that the United States is a good country filled with moral people

            • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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              9 months ago

              Letting the most immoral thing happen as you sit on your hands isn’t a moral victory on your part. It’s a moral failing. If you had the chance to save ten people but one of them had to die, and you choose to let all of them die, you didn’t do something moral.

              You can pretend to yourself that your making a stand that matters, but any rational person see that you are choosing to let more harm be done because you can’t stand to do something a little dirty but better. It’s weak, not moral. We sometimes have to do the thing we wish we didn’t in order to get the best outcome possible.

              You don’t clean your toilet because you enjoy it. You clean it because it needs to be done, and sometimes getting a little dirty is better than letting things get worse.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              If I have kids, I genuinely hope they ask me that. I hope they get angry at me, because the concept of a tacit genocide supporter being the lesser evil is unthinkable. I want them to live in a world where there aren’t moral conundrums like that, and the closest they come to them is in gritty video games and academic hypotheticals.

              I’m willing to support the lesser evil and have blood on my hands so they can live in a better world and condemn me for it. I will be thrilled if that comes to pass.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine and doesn’t support US aid or involvement for Ukrainians. Hardly unexpected, since she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.

              As far as I’m concerned, she’s Genocide Jill. I don’t recall her criticizing RT when someone on there suggested drowning Ukrainian children.

              What are West’s positions on Ukraine?

              • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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                9 months ago

                >What are West’s positions on Ukraine

                i’ve heard him say similar things to jill, but also that the shooting needs to stop.

              • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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                9 months ago

                >Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine

                she never said that. she has said it was an illegal invasion, though.

              • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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                9 months ago

                >she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.

                this contains both misinformation and innuendo. she went to one dinner, and she paid her own way. RT was one of the few outlets that would give her air time during her 2012 presidential bid, which is more of a commentary on the corporate media and political parties than on anything she’s ever done.

            • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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              9 months ago

              Jill Stein, yes, Cornell West? I wouldn’t bet on it. He’s 2 for 50 so far… I guess if you live in Alaska or Oregon, you’re in luck.

              He’s going to wish he stayed the Green candidate.

              Either way, they’ll pull a tiny segment of the vote and won’t win a single state, just like always.

                • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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                  9 months ago

                  Hey, there’s a first time for anything…

                  2020:
                  Libertarian - 1.18%
                  Green - 0.26% (Howie Hawkins)

                  2016:
                  Libertarian - 3.28%
                  Green - 1.07% (Jill Stein)

                  2012:
                  Libertarian - 0.99%
                  Green - 0.36% (Jill Stein)

                  2008:
                  Ralph Nader - 0.56%
                  Libertarian - 0.40%
                  Constitution - 0.15%
                  Green - 0.12% (Cynthia McKinney)

                  2004:
                  Ralph Nader - 0.38%
                  Libertarian - 0.32%
                  Constitution - 0.12%
                  Green - 0.10% (David Cobb)

                  2000:
                  Green - 2.74% (Ralph Nader)
                  Reform - 0.43% (Pat Buchanen)
                  Libertarian - 0.36%
                  Constitution - 0.09%
                  Natural Law - 0.08%

                  In order to hit 5%, she would have to do twice as well as Nader did in 2000.

                  That is never going to happen.

    • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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      9 months ago

      If its a primary then fuck Biden, but if it’s the General Election then the blue name on the ballot is who gets the check.

    • Rubanski@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      I am convinced a good chunk of the “genocide Joe” crew are agents provocateurs.

      • SevenOfWine@startrek.website
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        9 months ago

        You’re may be right. I assume most of them are ‘useful idiots’.

        They realised western media were often biased, so they switched to ‘critical’ media, spent more and more time in internet bubbles, and ended up uncritically parroting Russian, Chinese or Iranian propaganda instead.

        Same thing happened after 9/11 and Iraq. A lot of people were angry about how biased CNN was, so they switched to channels like Russia Today because it was critical of the US and did genuinely have a lot of good journalism. Of course, that doesn’t mean Russia Today isn’t propaganda. A lot of these people are forever lost, I don’t think you can deprogram them.

        Also if people use a lot of slogans like “cultural marxism”, “Fuck Brandon” or “genocide Joe”, without being able to articulate a nuanced position, it’s likely they’ve succumb to newspeak. Newspeak uses an impoverished and simplified vocabulary, to prevent people from critical thinking.

        • beardown@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          I don’t think that “Fuck Brandon” is indicative of much. Especially since Biden himself has heavily leaned into the “Dark Brandon” persona since 2022.

          You can’t claim that people who use the term “Brandon” are brainwashed when Biden’s own campaign uses the term - and even sells merchandise with the name/image depicted on it

          Unless you’re claiming that Dems/libs are also brainwashed, along with MAGA-types and the uncritical portions of the “dirtbag left”. In which case you’re correct, but likely unintentionally as that cuts against your broader point

    • assassinatedbyCIA@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      It must feel amazing to be held hostage by a ineffective political party that knows that if you don’t vote for them then the alternative will be much worse.

      • MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        The salient point is that Trump is endorsing a pogrom.

        Your takeaway from a story about a former President of the United States of America endorsing ethnic cleansing, is that a backhanded shot should be taken at the other party?

        • theneverfox@pawb.social
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          9 months ago

          I mean… It kinda sounded like gallows humor

          This is a particularly great comparison.

          Biden isn’t doing enough to stop Palestinians from getting mowed down in food lines. He’s so focused on appealing to the right that he’s making the left lose hope

          Trump is cheering it on, you know how he gets around authoritarians who commit human rights violations

          One of these is clearly much worse than the other. No question. But the end result doesn’t feel different

          Every step forward is too little so late… Even the article this last week “Biden speaks out against Netanyahu” was him very carefully calling for a cease fire.

          It’s so little, so late… We’re all waiting for him to go Darth Brandon and do something big. Something that’ll give the left hope, and involve him making some deserving enemies

      • Lauchs@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Holding us hostage by… progressive voters choosing not to show up in the primaries.

        Admittedly, bitching online is much easier and doesn’t involve leaving the house but still…

        • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          FYI, voting doesn’t require leaving the house either. Register to vote by mail!

        • beardown@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          How did Dems do so well in the 2022 and 2020 and 2018 elections?

          And why are a record number of congressional Democrats currently members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus?

      • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        Must be amazing to think that there’s a giant majority of Socialists in America and the only thing holding them back is the DNC.

      • rayyy@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        It is amazing that some people think that Biden can snap his fingers and Israel jumps to attention. Israel is a country that attacked the USS Liberty! Biden didn’t start the conflict. People on both sides have died. You can’t stop trains, super tankers of countries on a dime. It would be nice, however if folks would actually try to understand what is being done and why. Hint: you won’t find in in the MSM or from Putin’s trolls. Then again, mindless online bitching is so much easier.

        • Krono@lemmy.today
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          9 months ago

          Yeah, you can’t just call up Israel, threaten US aid, and tell them to end hostilities: that only worked when Reagan and did it! And when HW Bush did it! /s

          I dont understand this idea that the US has no leverage when we are sending Israel billions of dollars. Without US resupply, several crucial Israeli military systems would be forced to shut down.

          • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
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            So, we’ve already given them all the means and any call for action is “shutting down crucial military systems” aka leaving them vulnerable in a hostile region?

            • Krono@lemmy.today
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              9 months ago

              “If you dont stop the genocide then we will stop arming your soldiers” sounds reasonable to me.

              If Israel is left vulnerable in a hostile region, it will be because of their own actions.

            • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              So you don’t care about signing death warrants you just want to be upset about things in the middle east?

        • vexikron@lemmy.zip
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          9 months ago

          Well uh when you have the US Navy under your command, and already in the area dealing with Houthis, you know, by shooting down their missiles and bombing them and such, you actually /can/ stop trains and tankers.

          You could airlift aid! You could, hilariously, stop ships heading to Israel with a Naval Blockade!

          Obviously that last one isnt going to happen, but theres a whole lot more than basically nothing that you could do.

          For starters: Cut off a bunch of joint projects between US and Israeli firms, stop sending them large amounts of money for other things, stop fucking shit canning every attempt by the UN to sanction Israel, or maybe even use these aforementioned things as threats and leverage to force a fucking ceasefire.

          And now because this is the internet: Am I saying that Trump is somehow not bad, not far, far, far fucking worse by pointing out the rest?

          Nooooo!

          No, fucking obviously Trump would be a thousand times worse!

          But pretending that there’s nothing Biden could do is a joke.

          He doesn’t because he is a long time Zionist, and the American public, and particularly political and media figures, have been bathed in Zionist propaganda for so long that it takes an overt genocide for us to figure out that maybe Israel actually isn’t a perfect unconditional ally.