Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Tuesday he would tolerate no corruption or treachery in affairs of state while his country is struggling to find the means to defend itself against Russian invaders.
Really? He’s equally as bad as the guy responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths due to invading a few neighbouring countries?
Not denying that Ukraine and Zelensky have their fair share of issues but I reckon saying they’re just as bad as Putin is more than a little bit disingenuous.
Like I mentioned in my other comment, I think that both leaders can and should be criticized independently, a comparison between the two is not useful.
Neither leader is socialist, so in my opinion, neither truly has the best interest of their country’s working class at heart. There could be some observation and speculation about how the possible outcomes of the conflict could promote socialist aims, but that is still independent of both guy themselves.
Does it makes a difference if you kill one person or 100? For charts maybe but you are still a murderer even if you kill a bunch. All politicians have blood in their hands, they don’t fight their wars, we do it for them and we get forced to do it. Ukraine is under martial law, males between 18 and 60 can’t leave the country.
Do you really think that killing in order to defend yourself and others is the exact same thing as killing in support of ideologies such as fascism or imperialism? Iraqis defending themselves against Americans and Georgians defending themselves against Russians is morally identical to killing children because they speak the wrong language, worship the wrong god, or have skin that’s the wrong colour?
Plenty of russian likes putin too, they are victim of propaganda. I’m sure these Ukrainians between 18 and 60 who want to leave the country but they can’t don’t like their government much.
I’ve worked with some of them, and as far as I can tell whilst they don’t like the situation they’re in, they want to kick the shit out if Russians (putting it softly) more than they want to escape.
Turns out invading a country can instill some pretty heavy anger in the populace… Who knew?
I’m not going to take a hard stance here cause I don’t think a side by side comparison with Putin is a useful conversation to have, but I want to point out a couple things that may add some nuance to what you’ve heard before.
Since 1991, Ukraine has been in an increasingly precarious geopolitical position, with many differences among it’s population and political leadership about how to proceed. One could argue that Zelensky ended up stuck between a rock and a hard place, but at the end of the day his fumbling around and repeated motions towards joining NATO were bad political moves that nearly forced (kinda, maybe not forced idk) Russia’s hand into a military action. Even if going to NATO was definitively the correct choice (weird thing to think, tbh), he managed doing so incredibly poorly.
Be aware that Ukraine has had a lot of division among the populaton about whether the country should be Western/EU aligned or Russian aligned. There are many historical and cultural reasons for different regions, communities and individuals to have their particular views (like any political stance). Consider that if you spoke with a Ukrainian person somewhere outside of Eastern Europe, and used the English language, they are probably going to have a pro-western, pro-zelensky viewpoint. You probably won’t hear much from Russian speaking Ukrainians who wouldn’t prefer to emigrate to “the West”, and support Ukrainian alignment with Russia.
Having spent SIGNIFICANT time in all parts of ukraine I can safely say they are a varied people. Russian speaking Ukrainians and non Russian speaking I heard numerous pro ussr and pro west ideas. Non of what you said points to zelensky being as bad as or worse than put in. Pretty much everyone likes him regardless of personal political feelings.
Sure, like I said I don’t think it’s really important who is “worse”, it’s not a useful topic of discussion.
I did want to make a couple of counterpoints though
just cause Zelensky is popular, doesn’t necessarily make him a better leader. If we were to do a comparison (which we shouldn’t!) Putin is also widely popular along Russians. In both cases support for a wartime leader is going to rally, especially in Ukraine.
you certainly have infinitely more experience in the country than I do (dividing by zero ofc haha), but wouldn’t you have run into some of the same biases coming in as a foreigner (or foreign-born)? I don’t know your itinerary, and I’m not asking you to share, but the who, when and where is gonna make a difference.
as an example, I was interested in the interviews of the first two people in this video that I saw recently [watch starting at 3:15 till about 20 mins in]: https://youtu.be/drhgjxSJG6M located in the warzone in eastern Ukraine. Both are supportive of the Russian forces and appear to claim that such support in their local area is widespread.
Careful with that YouTube channel. Patrick Lancaster may be American, but everything he’s produced recently is essentially pro-Russian propaganda. Many (most?) of his videos are either misleading or staged.
Can you substantiate that? I’m only tangentially familiar with his work. He’s certainly softer on Russia than other sources, but is he doing more than bringing “balance” to the conversation?
Watching the clip I showed, I could suspect that he may be leaving out other interviews he did where people were more pro-ukrainian, but at the same time, the woman in the video claims that about 80% of the town supports Russia, which would line up with what I previously understood about the politics of their region.
I don’t particularly care that much about the guys personal politics, and I haven’t had that much exposure to them, since my only interest so far has been these two interviews which I personally interpret as primary sources. I would in now way claim that these two people speak for anyone besides themselves, but what they both say is loosely backed up by the data I’ve seen.
Fair question. First, I would not characterize what he does as being softer on Russia to bring balance. Some of his videos have been exposed as just being lies. That casts doubt on the rest, since ultimately you kind of just have to trust him. And before someone pops up to complain about Ukraine, yes Ukraine engages in propaganda as well. I am only cautioning against considering this source as being trustworthy.
I could try to give a rundown of him, but it would look a lot like his Wikipedia article so I will just point you there.
Fair, I’d be interested in examples, since I mostly know of him from seeing people talk about him on Lemmygrad or wherever (who have their own issues, of course). I can go find them myself though, I appreciate you giving me a general idea about what’s up wtih the guy.
I do appreciate him bringing these interviews on the ground, but I always want to do my best to account for bias and spin, even for things like that that appear straightforward. I haven’t even watched the second half of the video cause I figured it would feature him more (maybe that assumption was incorrect idk).
Definitely sounds like a crackpot who shouldn’t be taken too seriously from Wikipedia though. I just think calling something “propaganda” is a shallow criticism on its own.
This guy is equally trash than Putin
Idk about that - one has tried to get into EU and fight corruption, the other voted to devour his neighbouring country for increasingly petty reasons.
Really? He’s equally as bad as the guy responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths due to invading a few neighbouring countries?
Not denying that Ukraine and Zelensky have their fair share of issues but I reckon saying they’re just as bad as Putin is more than a little bit disingenuous.
Like I mentioned in my other comment, I think that both leaders can and should be criticized independently, a comparison between the two is not useful.
Neither leader is socialist, so in my opinion, neither truly has the best interest of their country’s working class at heart. There could be some observation and speculation about how the possible outcomes of the conflict could promote socialist aims, but that is still independent of both guy themselves.
Does it makes a difference if you kill one person or 100? For charts maybe but you are still a murderer even if you kill a bunch. All politicians have blood in their hands, they don’t fight their wars, we do it for them and we get forced to do it. Ukraine is under martial law, males between 18 and 60 can’t leave the country.
When making a comparison, the difference between the two things you’re comparing do in fact matter.
Do you really think that killing in order to defend yourself and others is the exact same thing as killing in support of ideologies such as fascism or imperialism? Iraqis defending themselves against Americans and Georgians defending themselves against Russians is morally identical to killing children because they speak the wrong language, worship the wrong god, or have skin that’s the wrong colour?
And how might that one be?
Because from an outsider perspective he seems to be doing alright and anecdotally a Ukrainian man I know says the people around him like Zelenskyy
Plenty of russian likes putin too, they are victim of propaganda. I’m sure these Ukrainians between 18 and 60 who want to leave the country but they can’t don’t like their government much.
I’ve worked with some of them, and as far as I can tell whilst they don’t like the situation they’re in, they want to kick the shit out if Russians (putting it softly) more than they want to escape.
Turns out invading a country can instill some pretty heavy anger in the populace… Who knew?
I’m not going to take a hard stance here cause I don’t think a side by side comparison with Putin is a useful conversation to have, but I want to point out a couple things that may add some nuance to what you’ve heard before.
Having spent SIGNIFICANT time in all parts of ukraine I can safely say they are a varied people. Russian speaking Ukrainians and non Russian speaking I heard numerous pro ussr and pro west ideas. Non of what you said points to zelensky being as bad as or worse than put in. Pretty much everyone likes him regardless of personal political feelings.
Sure, like I said I don’t think it’s really important who is “worse”, it’s not a useful topic of discussion.
I did want to make a couple of counterpoints though
Careful with that YouTube channel. Patrick Lancaster may be American, but everything he’s produced recently is essentially pro-Russian propaganda. Many (most?) of his videos are either misleading or staged.
Can you substantiate that? I’m only tangentially familiar with his work. He’s certainly softer on Russia than other sources, but is he doing more than bringing “balance” to the conversation?
Watching the clip I showed, I could suspect that he may be leaving out other interviews he did where people were more pro-ukrainian, but at the same time, the woman in the video claims that about 80% of the town supports Russia, which would line up with what I previously understood about the politics of their region.
I don’t particularly care that much about the guys personal politics, and I haven’t had that much exposure to them, since my only interest so far has been these two interviews which I personally interpret as primary sources. I would in now way claim that these two people speak for anyone besides themselves, but what they both say is loosely backed up by the data I’ve seen.
Fair question. First, I would not characterize what he does as being softer on Russia to bring balance. Some of his videos have been exposed as just being lies. That casts doubt on the rest, since ultimately you kind of just have to trust him. And before someone pops up to complain about Ukraine, yes Ukraine engages in propaganda as well. I am only cautioning against considering this source as being trustworthy.
I could try to give a rundown of him, but it would look a lot like his Wikipedia article so I will just point you there.
Fair, I’d be interested in examples, since I mostly know of him from seeing people talk about him on Lemmygrad or wherever (who have their own issues, of course). I can go find them myself though, I appreciate you giving me a general idea about what’s up wtih the guy.
I do appreciate him bringing these interviews on the ground, but I always want to do my best to account for bias and spin, even for things like that that appear straightforward. I haven’t even watched the second half of the video cause I figured it would feature him more (maybe that assumption was incorrect idk).
Definitely sounds like a crackpot who shouldn’t be taken too seriously from Wikipedia though. I just think calling something “propaganda” is a shallow criticism on its own.
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