Members of Kibbutz Hanita near Israel’s northern border are demanding $11 million from Ballet Vision, the Chinese fund that controls 80% of the Hanita Lenses plant, accusing it of refusing to exercise an option to purchase the kibbutz’s remaining shares, according to a lawsuit filed in Tel Aviv District Court.
In a response letter attached to the lawsuit, the Chinese fund said that since the outbreak of the war in Israel, Beijing has classified Israel as a “high-risk area” and imposed a ban on any new Chinese investments in the country, making it impossible to carry out the option.
According to the lawsuit, in 2021 the kibbutz sold 74% of Hanita Lenses, which manufactures intraocular lenses for medical use, to Ballet Vision for $35 million. Of that sum, $25 million was paid to kibbutz members, with an additional $10 million injected into the company.
A lot of what you say is reasonable discourse that can be seen as defending a political ideology that you fell strongly contributes to a better world. There’s nothing wrong with that and I commend you.
But then you say this
and you collapse into the “I’m about to start smashing skulls in the name of my ideology, and I’ll do so until I’ve inadvertently built an empire”.
So you and your ideological bedmates have decided that you have the moral clarity to decide who gets attacked in the name of anti-imperialism. The world has certainly never heard that angle before, I’m sure you’ll be the first.
When you can’t actually counter the arguments someone has actually made, instead you can just wildly misrepresent them!
As I said already in another response to you, we’re talking past each other. You’re not trying to understand what I said and I don’t have the desire to discuss it with you. I would assume you feel the same about me. We’re not benefiting each other in any way, at this point you’re not going to convince me and I’m not going to convince you, there’s no point to continue, so best to just go about our day.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
-Jean-Paul Sartre
Cool quote. I like Sartre. I’ve used the “don’t believe in words” many times. And I’m not an anti-semite, just so you know. I’ve many Jewish people in my life.
But I’m not trying to redefine anything. I just don’t want to talk to you or anyone about it anymore.
So you’re loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is passed?
“Imperialist violence and antiimperialist violence are actually the same”
Okay, so just sit there and suffer endlessly i guess. Nobody should fight back against Israel or ICE, because that would make them the same. Damn, it’s been a while since I’ve seen this view unironically.
Not what I said at all. I’m 100% for fighting back against ICE, and although I don’t believe going to war in the middle east is something Canada should do, I do believe in stopping all trade with Israel and treating them like a genocidal, criminal regime. That doesn’t mean we should go to war with them or hope to increase our foreign militarism in general, which is what the OP was saying and what I responded to. Moreover he claimed that somehow a Marxist state would be immune to abusing that power, and yes, that is naive.
If you don’t understand at this point, best to just move on with our lives. I don’t have any more energy or desire to explain it.
Oh, so you “have decided that you have the moral clarity to decide who gets attacked in the name of anti-imperialism.” then?
Presumably you also believe we shouldn’t have gone to war with Nazi Germany.
Are you planning to follow me around this whole thread humping my leg trying to get attention? I get it, you hate liberals. Move on bro.
There are 3 major problems with your line of logic.
For starters, not all intervention means millitary violence. There can be economic intervention, such as sanctions, trade embargoes, or even supplying resistance groups. In fact, the PRC already does some of this, in supporting the Palestinian resistance. My emotional desire for more support in this regard doesn’t rest on the PLA invading Israel.
With respect to argument 2, international violence is not inherently imperialist. Imperialism is a relationship by which one country economically plunders the resources and surplus value created by other countries. This can be maintained with violence, installing compradors, etc. The PRC isn’t imperialist, and aiding Palestine against Israel would not resort in the creation of new colonies for China.
With respect to argument 3, you verge into idealism. The idea that Marxism-Leninism isn’t a genuinely anti-imperialist framework needs to be contested based on its merits as an ideology, not based on the idea that flawed ideologies exist. You treat anti-imperialism as something inherently unknowable, ie within the realm of the supernatural, intentionally or not. The truth is that nothing in the universe is truly unknowable, no matter how difficult it is to learn, and treating certain ideas as beyond knowledge just pushes them into the realm of the supernatural.
All of your arguments are in service of saying the PLA would be evil to provide more direct support to the resistance and take a stronger anti-Zionist stance than they already are, via phrasemongering on your part and linguistic gymnastics.
To begin with, you should use the word ‘claim’ rather than ‘assume’.
No I don’t. OP did when they hoped for increased militarism.
No I don’t. Foreign military adventures are not always imperialism.
You’re starting to get to what I was claiming, which is that unchecked power backed by ideology convinced of its moral, ethical or political superiority will eventually aim to spread itself, likely through violence, military or otherwise. Marxism is no different, and the implementation of it in China is not showing any moral superiority beyond what I’ve seen in history from any other soon to be superpower, colonial or otherwise. We’ll soon see how that plays out in Taiwan I’m sure, which will be the next example of China’s ‘beneficence’.
I admit I didn’t read anything past your three points because your first two interpretations of my claims didn’t impress me (so I’m not really interested in how you rebut the claims you made up) and moreover this entire exchange with everyone has been insulting and lacking in any good faith whatsoever so I’m disinclined to attempt further discussion with anyone.
Least bad faith shitlib
I’m OP, and no I didn’t make that claim. I used “millitant” to refer to taking an active role, rather than a passive one. That’s why I said you assumed all intervention is violent based on my use of the word millitant.
But you did. You said millitant intervention leads to imperialism.
This is idealism, though, and is based more on the supernatural than the material. By claiming that no ideology can actually be genuinely anti-imperialist, you treat anti-imperialism as something unknowable, beyond the material, and therefore the realm of the supernatural. Materialism teaches us that there is nothing truly unknowable, while your reasoning relies on some grand “human spirit” to explain your insistence that ideology inevitably turns to imperialism.
And this is why your argument is getting correctly deconstructed by everyone, you aren’t actually listening and have made up your mind that you’re correct.
If you say so.
I like how you’ve left a dozen comments asserting that you have nothing left to say and the conversation is over, and then you just keep going while refusing to actually engage in the conversation.
Great talk.
Yes fighting on the side of the exploited against their exploiter is morally just in all instances. It’s easy for you to talk shit from your cushy position in the imperial core. I hope you reflect in the future on the immense privilege you have thanks to the mass immiseration of the global south and do better.
So you’re not different from your opposition. For sure you’ve got the right answer, and your might will prove it.
It’s not about me, it’s about the principle you’re espousing. Also you don’t know anything about me, and presuming you do does nothing for your position.
Edit - Are you also asserting China is not or will never be imperialist? How naive can you possibly be?
“Fighting against the Nazis makes you no different from the Nazis!!!”
Everyone in this comment section is talking past each other. This isn’t what I said or implied, it’s what others, like you, implied about what I said.
Incredible for the “fighting back against fascism is evil” guy to be calling anyone else naive
You clearly misunderstood what I said.
My family fought and one of them died fighting fascists, I despise them and would gladly rejoin the military to do so, even though I’m almost at the age cap.
How’s your history in this regard?
Your assertions here are that using violence against fascists is bad purely because we cannot know whether fascism is correct or anti-fascism is. As for China being imperialist or not, your argument is that by opposing fascism they will inevitably become imperialist.
These are logical absurdities based in idealism.
Nope
It is, though.
You aren’t arguing about the answer. When we say “violence against fascists and imperialists is justified,” you attack the fact that this is ideologically driven.
This argument, again, is saying principles are incapable of being good.
I’ve responded to about a dozen people, friend. I’m not going to rehash it here.
Which country do you live in?
Why does it matter? I’ve said so before, so it isn’t really a secret, but what is the purpose?
Because after all the negativity and bad faith, and given the fact that we’re all talking past each other, I’m trying to decide if I care enough to attempt to back up and actually try to understand and/or come to a point of mutual perceived benefit.
And frankly I care much less if the person is notat the very least within my sphere of interest from a political and economic point of view. If the ideas they’re espousing have not chance of being implemented where I live, I care much, much less about who they are or what they think.
Yes. What part of fighting on the side of the exploited against their exploiters is always just did you not get?
Might doesn’t prove anything. Violence is unfortunately the only language that colonialist and imperialists understand as has already been proven by history.
In your mind was it wrong to use violence on the Nazis? You seem awfully pro status quo which is built on the rape, murder pillaging and mass exploitation of Billions for the comfort of a few millions and the mass excesses of a few thousand.
There’s nothing wrong with fighting to protect people it’s the part where you decide you and your friends get to decide who is right and who is wrong.
As I said before, you don’t know anything about me, so don’t presume that you do so that you can justify your righteous indication and buttress poorly formed beliefs. My family has a long history of military involvement, my grandfather fought from Normandy to Germany and suffered greatly for it. Two of his brothers fought and one didn’t come back. My maternal grandmother was Osterbeiter and met my maternal grandfather in a German work camp. All of my family hated Nazis with a passion their entire lives, and half of them also hated Soviets. Don’t talk to me like I don’t understand fighting for what you believe, and don’t tell me I don’t understand suffering.
Military excursions in the name of ideology, particularly when they are done by a superpower, very quickly become imperialism. Thinking China is immune to that is immensely naive.
More vibes based analysis from one so wise. Fighting the Nazis was good but fighting the order set up by the imperial power the Nazis modelled themselves after is bad. You are a privileged liberal who only cares about what directly affects you and don’t care about the rest of us. The global south is being exploited on a scale that would give Hitler wet dreams and your response to people supporting them fighting back is “you’re just as bad as the exploiters if you fight back”. It’s infantile and plainly ridiculous. Grow up. Do some reading, go visit the global south and talk to people and witness the exploitation you are inherently ok with as you condemn resistance.
Long history of imperial conquest but also fought the Nazis so all the rest of it is ok.
You clearly don’t know what this word means.
We don’t decide anything. It has already been decided when they supported genocide imperialism and colonialism. No one forced them to.
You’re insulting to me and my family, you know nothing about me, and we’ve strayed pretty far from the point, which was that any ideological regime given unchecked power will with very high likelihood eventually abuse it to spread their beliefs.
There isn’t any good faith left here. I didn’t attack you personally, and I don’t appreciate it from you.
Thankfully, as I said in another comment, although I strongly disagree with many aspects of how my country is organized, I doubt your view of how to organize a country will get much purchase here, other than the aspects which are beneficial and which we attempted to integrate, to our benefit. In fact I’m not even sure you’re Canadian so this suggests we have even less of a reason to carry on this discussion.
Have a great weekend, try not to hate your fellow countrymen, or indeed humanity itself, too much. You’re supposed to be presenting a morally enlightened regime after all. Not off to a great start.
What made you think I was Canadian? I never claimed to be? What the fuck are you talking about? I’m Chinese in China all my life. I would never want to be a white settler colonist American dog Canadian. Your country is founded on war crimes and genocide. After world war 2 Canada accepted anyone who had an SS tattoo. Canada like America is a Nazi state who perpetuate the largest immiseration machine in human history on the global south 24/7. I will never stop saying death to Amerikkka, death to Kkklanada, death to the imperial core until my brother’s and sisters of the global South are emancipated and liberated from the brutal imperial and neocolonial machine. You can be offended by that but know that your offense comes from your immense privilege, all your treats your “social democracy” is funded and built upon the mass pillaging of the global south and extraction of superprofits. Read a book and stop being such an arrogant insufferable privileged liberal. You know nothing of our struggles, nothing of our beliefs, nothing of our lives and you don’t want to know because it’s easier to just wallow in centrism providing endless “critique” with no action or solutions.
I didn’t, which is why I don’t see why I should care.
Uh yeah, and you think that China is superior and the rest of the world is full of failed humans and failed states. There is no good faith here. Why do you care to defend yourself or convince others?
We’re talking past each other, as I’ve said to many others on this topic. I’m willing to acknowledge all kinds of great things about China, including the decision in this article, but I’m fairly certain there is no reciprocity and in fact I’m sure you cover your eyes to many of China’s failings.
But I don’t need to impress you, I’ve got a great life, a good family and a job that makes me happy. Try as you might, you just don’t matter to me, which is why I said we should both just move on.
Connect this. How is a country materially supporting anti-fascism and anti-imperialism a road to imperialism? Tie it directly to Marxism-Leninism in particular. Focusing on vague generalities while ignoring specifics that are inconvenient to your argument is poor logic.
Why? Connect the argument, address the claims directly.
Why do you suppose Marxist-Leninist ideology somehow immunizes a nation against imperialist desires or a general desire to increase ones power, which are both arguably part of human nature and certainly part of the nature of a nation-state?
What is it about any ideology that might make it immune to that?
Any unchecked ideology will eventually try to assert itself unilaterally. As your previous comments have made clear.
Marxism-Leninism is an explicitly anti-colonialist ideology that helped the PRC overturn the century of humiliation, defeat Japanese and US imperialism and feudalists, to win the greatest anti-colonial revolution of the 20th century.
Only if you are entirely ignorant of that history can you claim that “the anti-colonial camp is just as bad as their colonizers”.
Nothing about what you’ve said convinces me that a nation founded on or implementing Marxist Leninist or any other ideological principles is somehow immune to the drive to spread those principles through violence or expansion or whatever other explanation they come up with. I can appreciate that you believe that this system is perfect and would never be unethical or immoral, but I’m afraid I disagree with you, and moreover I don’t believe we a) start from the same fundamental values or beliefs, nor b) have enough goodwill to engage in good faith. Nor do I have the time or the desire to rectify any of that, even if I thought it would benefit me in any way to do it.
Thankfully for me, as much as I have problems with the way my country is organized (which you cannot know, and seem to have no desire to know), I strongly doubt your way of organizing the world will have much purchase here.
I’m moving on and I recommend you do as well.
Fucking human nature bullshit.
God I hate liberals.
I’m not worried that you even understand what liberalism is, and I know for a fact you have no idea who I am other than my comment history. Yours, by the way, is not particularly impressive.
Who did you vote for in the last Canadian election?
And exactly what was the point of your insertion into this discussion?
Your argument is still idealist, not materialist, and thus relies on supernatural explanation. Appealing to the idea of a universal human spirit that trends towards imperialism and increasing power is a supernatural explanation for why imperialism exists, and why power structures are formed. Same with the idea thay any “unchecked” ideology will “assert itself unilaterally,” which itself could be a good thing!
Imperialism is caused by capitalist expansion, capital expands outward and seeks foreign markets to plunder in order to fight the tendency for the rate of profit to fall. This isn’t because of “human nature” or any other vague and supernatural explanation, but because of material processes of economics.
If your arguments are restrained to the realm of the supernatural, we can’t take them seriously.
You, or at least many of the other commenters that I was responding to, believe a Marxist regime is immune to abuse of power, in particular military strength, and would never enforce its will. I disagree with that, and I don’t need to invoke anything you call supernatural to hold that belief.
You’re right, if this is where we are, I’m not sure there is any discussion I would wish to have. And given the overwhelming animosity I’ve experienced, I’m guessing neither do you or any of the other commenters.
None of you have given me any indication of good faith, and quite a few have in fact made some rather abhorrent claims about me, someone they know nothing about.
We should collectively take this as an indication that there is no discussion to be had here.