Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything?
Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.
Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about
Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)
almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…
Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.
If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example?
The answer to these questions is obvious given that whatever deal Ukraine ends up with is going to be strictly worse than it would’ve been at the start of the war. All Zelensky accomplished was to destroy his country, and to ensure that millions of people died or had their lives ruined to achieve a worse long term outcome for Ukraine.
The answer is obvious, there was no scenario where Ukraine could have won the war. The only possible thing that could’ve happened was precisely what we see happening. Pretty much anybody with even a minimal understanding of the situation understood this before the war started. Here’s how Obama put it back in 2016
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
Lol, really?
Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /s
beating - well that goes without saying when you are kidnapping someone, it’s hard to do that without beating, but if that gets you off - you can find something here https://uadraftmuseum.ch/incidents
Show me where I either denied Ukraine was doing these things, or celebrated them happening, because that sure didn’t happen.
What I specifically said, and what you’ve consistently danced around, is that Russia is doing these things at least as much but more likely more and you seem to not really care about “your people” when Russians do these things to them. Maybe you’re a Ukrainian citizen who supports Russia taking over the country, or supports moving closer to Russias sphere of influence as opposed to the EU. Thats cool, you’re entitled to think that, but you aren’t entitled to pretend that Russia is magically absolved of anything bad they’ve done because WEST BAD.
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.
Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)
I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…
Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.
The answer to these questions is obvious given that whatever deal Ukraine ends up with is going to be strictly worse than it would’ve been at the start of the war. All Zelensky accomplished was to destroy his country, and to ensure that millions of people died or had their lives ruined to achieve a worse long term outcome for Ukraine.
The answer to those questions (surrender at oustset ￫ what injustice, what harms) is not obvious, please spell it out.
The answer is obvious, there was no scenario where Ukraine could have won the war. The only possible thing that could’ve happened was precisely what we see happening. Pretty much anybody with even a minimal understanding of the situation understood this before the war started. Here’s how Obama put it back in 2016
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!
Literally never said that, ok :)
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
Lol, really?
Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /s
Nice work cherry picking the single item on the list that doesn’t fit, you sure aren’t beating the allegations today!
Ah, so you meant
So here is about kidnappings, there is now a first hand source now actually: https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html
beating - well that goes without saying when you are kidnapping someone, it’s hard to do that without beating, but if that gets you off - you can find something here https://uadraftmuseum.ch/incidents
some stories about holding people in the basements: https://goloskarpat.info/society/66f2bfed03425/ https://informator.ua/uk/tck-husta-utrimuye-turistiv-iz-bronyuvannyam-u-zhahliviy-pidzemniy-tyurmi-spovid-chinovnika-z-dnipra
and to make sure to get you off, here is about gasing and trying to make people’s vehicle on file: https://unn.ua/en/news/they-tried-to-smoke-out-a-man-and-gassed-the-car-a-scandalous-video-of-the-tccs-actions-near-kyiv-has-appeared-online and one about literally tortures: https://news.novyny.live/en/u-genshtabi-vidreaguvali-na-pogrozi-ta-nasilstvo-u-211-i-brigadi-219974.html
Show me where I either denied Ukraine was doing these things, or celebrated them happening, because that sure didn’t happen.
What I specifically said, and what you’ve consistently danced around, is that Russia is doing these things at least as much but more likely more and you seem to not really care about “your people” when Russians do these things to them. Maybe you’re a Ukrainian citizen who supports Russia taking over the country, or supports moving closer to Russias sphere of influence as opposed to the EU. Thats cool, you’re entitled to think that, but you aren’t entitled to pretend that Russia is magically absolved of anything bad they’ve done because WEST BAD.