• alternative_factor@kbin.social
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    9 months ago

    The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.

      • Psychodelic@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        The IRA and the CHIPS Act were pretty legit - granted, I think trump might’ve passed some version of the CHIPS act as well. Seems like a no-brainer, imo, but the one that did it gets the credit!

        • BearGun@ttrpg.network
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          9 months ago

          ? There are no “means”. all you can do is vote, and then something is going to happen depending on who wins. It’s not “do bad thing to get good result”, it’s “do neutral thing to get less bad result” or “do nothing to get shite result”.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Is voting not a means to elect Joe Biden to prevent Trump?

            I don’t think the Palestinians suffering a genocide will see the “means” of voting for Biden as #neutral. This is the disconnect, many of us are selfishly more concerned about our menial lives than we are for people across the world; when the reality is we are no more important than they are. Either we’re all humans, or none of us are.

      • jballs@sh.itjust.works
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        9 months ago

        Project 2025 is a conservative plan to immediately reshape the executive branch and replace most people with Trump loyalists immediately if he wins. It includes dismantling the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, because while Republicans like to claim to be tough on crime, they really don’t like an independently functioning Justice Department that has shown their leader to be a criminal.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        A fascist purging of government the Republicans have planned if Trump wins.

      • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        The same fearmongering we heard in 2016 and 2020. You must save Democracy for the 12th year in a row by voting Democrat!!

        After Trump dies some other Republican will take over that says crazier shit and then you must keep saving Demoracy by always voting Democrat. Never vote third party.

        • Cruxifux@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Well historically I’ve voted independent. I’m Canadian, but we have similar party issues.

          Honestly seeing shit like this though, if it really is just fearmongering, it’s fucking working. This shit looks horrifying to me, I’d probably end up voting for Biden just to not let trump in. And I fucking hate Biden.

          • Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Canadian

            Oh boy. How about the recent fumble of electoral reform by the Liberal party in Canada eh?

            “Oopsie poopsie, now you HAVE TO vote for us or yous gets the conservatives again! LOL!”

          • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Trump already won in 2016 and the world didn’t end back then. It’s not going to be better than Biden but it sure as hell isn’t going to be as bad as people here make it out to be.

            • Cruxifux@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              I hope you’re right. It went about how I thought it would go last time. That insurrection thing threw me though. And all the court cases coming after trump, as well as that project 2025 thing, this time seems different to me.

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                9 months ago

                If the Dems were serious about prosecuting him he wouldn’t get bailed out at the last second every time.

                Also Dems purposely delayed the inserruction case now the verdict won’t be until after the election. Real convenient now nothing can stop Trump except voting for Biden.

                • root_beer@midwest.social
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                  9 months ago

                  I have been really annoyed with the protest vote arguments because our system is horseshit and we still have to play within it, but there is no disagreeing with this. I’ll be voting a lot of these useless assholes back in this time as a last-ditch effort, but a purge of the bad actors is long in order. I lost faith in our institutions with Trump in charge, but when it’s come down to punishing that hunk of offal, nothing the dems have done has brought that faith back.

                  To be honest though, even if things in that situation were going better, I’d still be unconvinced. Outside said institutions, I truly believe that we are not participating in a society, we haven’t been for decades, and that’s got nothing to do with the government.

                • Cruxifux@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  If that’s actually their game plan, then that’s the most idiotic game plan I’ve ever seen and it is definitely going to put trump back in the White House.

                  They can’t seriously be that stupid though. Can they?

                  I think it could be possible that this is the game plan they’re going with because it’s lazy and won’t piss off any donors, which doing things actual leftists want would definitely do.

                  • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    If that’s actually their game plan, then that’s the most idiotic game plan I’ve ever seen

                    I mean, this is the party of the pied piper strategy.

                  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    The DNC screwed over Bernie in 2016 to make sure a real progressives wouldn’t win. They shoved in Hillary which was (and is) so bad she lost to Trump 1.

                    The Clintons actually suggested Trump to run thinking he’d be such a pathetic opponent that it would land them an easy victory.

                    Make no mistake, the Democrats prefer having Trump win over someone that could actually impose change.

                    Trump is their perfect enemy because they can keep running trash candidates and having them win solely on “not Trump”.

                  • go_go_gadget@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    They can’t seriously be that stupid though. Can they?

                    They’re not stupid. They’re pro-corporatists. They can’t prosecute Trump without harming some other rich fucks in the process. When Trump said he’d have to have a fire sale to make the bond amount that wasn’t a complaint it was a threat. Commercial real estate is already being propped up by fake numbers. If Trumps properties went up for sale it would blow that whole thing up. That’s why he’s being protected.

                    Pro-corporatism has no way of addressing fascism. And the Democrats are a pro-corporate party.

            • PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              The American fascist party was born prematurely. They’ve spent the last eight years incubating within the Republican party and are ready to go mask-off now.

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              9 months ago

              It almost did. There was a mob of people just a couple doors away from murdering most of congress and making Trump a dictator.

              The only reason Trump failed to end democracy is because he and the rest of the Republican party were just trying things without a real plan.

              They have a plan now. If they get a chance to use it, they will be successful.

              • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                The Democrats sure waited a long time to prosececute Trump with that. Now the result of that trial will be after the election. Thank Democrats for saving Trump from jail.

            • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              But throughout it all, life went on. The people of Germany lived in and often simply accepted the new normal that came with the rise of fascism –- a state of normalcy that, if the war had ended differently, could have become normal, everyday life for much of the rest of Europe as well. source

            • root_beer@midwest.social
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              9 months ago

              What a charmed life you must lead. I wasn’t really affected by his policies either but have you noticed the way things have been turning for the people his goons have been targeting since the chuds became empowered?

              It is imperative that we bury the GOP first. Then, we absolutely can and should go knives out on Team Blue™️. I don’t disagree that Biden needs to go, and that most of the Democrats are obstacles at best to truly repairing our long-dead society. Hell, don’t just vote, actually fucking run for office, start somewhere where you aren’t so completely outgunned by the moneyed interests but you also actually make a difference. But for now, we need to take down the more immediate threat.

              Throw rocks at me for saying it, but the Dems’ fecklessness is our fault too, to an extent. The problem is complacency when the pendulum appears to have swung in our direction, like “yeah we got the job done!* Let’s have pizza and congratulate ourselves and go back home!” Fortunately, it may finally no longer be the case. But for christ’s sake, can we not throw the baby out with the bathwater? The upcoming, inevitable fight will be less harrowing if we can keep from actively making the battlefield more hazardous, which absolutely will happen with a Trump win.

              *christ, I remember when Obama was elected and there was a false prospect of healthcare reform, Newsweek published a rather insulting cover saying, “we are all socialists now”, simultaneously feeding the right’s paranoia and patronizing the left in such an insulting way

              • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                You’re not going to bury the GOP by voting Democrat. You will just worsen the situation.

                Biden is continuing to build the wall, jailed twice as many immigrants as Trump, is committing Genocide, and so much more. Biden is just a GOP candidate with D in front of his name. He is one of the biggest establishment democrats who has built his career on empowering the elites.

                  • go_go_gadget@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    Probably not. But maybe the moderate and liberal voters will finally wake the fuck up and realize they need to compromise with leftists or progressives if they want to win elections.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          The line is wearing thin, since democracy keeps being in greater peril even when we elect Democratic majorities.

          Democrats would rather protect the filibuster than democracy.

          • Nudding@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Democrats would rather lose the election to a fascist than stop aiding a genocide.

              • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Pointing out that Biden will lose if he continues supporting genocide is not supporting Trump.

                • Plastic_Ramses@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  That is correct. However, their comment implies that there are people not voting for biden due to his participation, and my question still stands.

                  Those people not voting for biden because of his stance merely ensure that the thing they dont want to happen will happen on a much larger scale - abroad and at home.

                  • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    Your question is framed in such a way that it presupposes that the person you are asking is gonna vote for Trump.

                    Don’t try to walk it back now.

                • Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  We aren’t Russia (for now). We can still effect change at the state level by getting rid of First Past The Post voting and passing comprehensive electoral reform.

                  • go_go_gadget@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    No we can’t. Liberal and moderate voters will never allow it. Nor would the establishment Democrats it’s benefitted.

        • Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Pass electoral reform in your state first, then you can vote third party with zero chance of a spoiler effect.

          Check out a video on First Past the Post voting if you’d like to learn more.

        • Cruxifux@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I just perused the Wikipedia page, doesn’t seem like a boogeyman to me. Considering it’s backed by the Heritage Foundation. It seems horrifying to be honest.

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            9 months ago

            Don’t worry. I’m sure they don’t really mean to install Trump as the president for life, make LGBTQ+ illegal, instill Christianty as the state religion, deploy the military for law enforcement, etc, etc. Hitler didn’t REALLY mean he was gonna kill millions of people!

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                Let me guess- if you are American you stopped hanging out with your right-wing neighbors/family? Because for some insane reason, I didn’t. This is 100% what they actually believe. They really think that anything left of Trump is part of the deep state conspiracy, homeschool their kids, think that bringing back “god” in school/state will fix everything, that Trump will save the country, etc, etc. Some of them already know about project 2025 and have greeted it with thunderous applause, the rest of the right will too.
                If you are not American, fuck off. You have no idea how bad the right-wingers really have become

                  • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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                    9 months ago

                    You haven’t made any statements worth refuting, you’ve only given your unsubstantiated personal opinion.

                  • Cruxifux@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    You didn’t say anything of actual value comrade. Explain to me why you think something backed by the heritage foundation, which is a big money organization and not something to be taken lightly, holds no weight? I’m not American, but seeing this makes me worried for Americans. It seems like Republican takeover of a huge amount of power in the states.

                    The democrats are atrocious for leftist movements. This is not debatable. But this is death of the leftist movement in America shit as far as I can tell. It seems like a huge leap towards Christo-fascism if attainable. I don’t see it as something that should just be ignored on any level. Why do you feel that it is? Maybe you know something I don’t.

          • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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            9 months ago

            Its not, but plenty of Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate and not voting is the answer. Its why theyll spam anything and everything about the Gaza genocide to the front page while not so sneakily inserting comments like this or, “gEnOciDe JoE” in the middle of it all.

            • Krono@lemmy.today
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              9 months ago

              Or maybe people have a legitimate moral concern when their country is aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide?

              • Doc Avid Mornington@midwest.social
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                9 months ago

                Two things can be happening. People with a legitimate moral concern, such as myself, don’t actively act against that concern by helping elect a candidate who would make that concern even worse. There are ways to express our anger and sorrow about Biden’s handling of this without supporting Trump.

                • Krono@lemmy.today
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                  9 months ago

                  Biden is going to lose if he continues his genocidal policy in Gaza.

                  People like me put pressure on the Biden admin to change course. By engaging in good faith criticism, I am trying to get Biden elected.

                  People who refuse to criticize Biden enable him to continue on this losing path. Enabling the worst of the Biden administration’s policies is helping to elect Trump.

                  • Doc Avid Mornington@midwest.social
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                    9 months ago

                    Yes, I completely agree, so far as I can without looking up your post and comment history to confirm that you do what you are saying here you do, but taking your word for that. Good faith criticism isn’t what Pan_Ziemniak seemed to be describing.

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                9 months ago

                (Spoiler)

                If that means they take (in)action that lets Donnie win a second term, they don’t

                • Krono@lemmy.today
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                  9 months ago

                  Orange man is so bad that you’ll actively support a genocide, very enlightened, great job.

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                    9 months ago

                    Thanks! “orange man bad /s” really takes me back to the days I was scrolling r/con for laughs

                    Congrats on making it to Lemmy

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                    9 months ago

                    Orange man is going to crank it up to 11. Dems range from feckless to complicit, none of us disagree. The GOP would just straight-up take over for Israel if they can get away with it (they probably will) and they’ll sanction murder of people within our own borders.

                    Blue man is so not good enough for you that you’ll actively support escalating a genocide. Very enlightened, great job.

                  • Nudding@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    The neoliberals here will have no problem adapting to life under fascism. It’s a tale as old as time.

              • Albatross2724@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                It’s hard to get Americans to care about the death and destruction that occurs at the behest of the American Empire. People like the commenter above see the people of Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, and so on as subhuman cannon fodder. Why should they care about the genocide of those they don’t even see as human. In their eyes, all brown Muslim people and the spectrum of humanity that resides in these countries ravished by our foreign policy, are just simply terrorists. And when younger generations watch these horrors unfold in real time on social media, and advocate for human rights, the knee-jerk reaction of Congress is to ban a social media platform rather than to have any meaningful impact on the situation, as their MIC/corporate/AIPAC donors have dictated.

              • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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                9 months ago

                Ahh, gotcha. Guess we really gotta push for Status Quo Joe harder then unless we want “stepping stone for the de-nazification of Europe” Ukraine to be genocided even harder than they currently are. Or, lemme guess, the russian talking point i see the shills parroting is, “ackshwallee, Ukraine has some guns/ammo so that mustn’t be a genocide,” right?

            • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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              9 months ago

              >Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate

              if this were true you could show one.

          • HACKthePRISONS@kolektiva.social
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            9 months ago

            they couldn’t keep bush 1 in office, no one takes their economic freedom index seriously, they didn’t stop Obamacare… they’re a joke.

            • root_beer@midwest.social
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              9 months ago

              You say that as if Obamacare was what we actually wanted. They wrote what became Obamacare decades before the tea party threw their tantrums over it, their opposition to it was political theater and the chance to water it down even further

    • index@sh.itjust.works
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      9 months ago

      I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.

      Instead of picking between a genocide and another you should just vote for someone else and don’t support any criminal.

    • Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Possible genocide in the USA should one of the two viable presidential candidates gets elected?

      Will the democrats stop pursuing gun control considering this imminent threat of genocide?

      SocialistRA.org