The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
If the only thing Biden ever does is keep Trump from office it will be a net win.
The IRA and the CHIPS Act were pretty legit - granted, I think trump might’ve passed some version of the CHIPS act as well. Seems like a no-brainer, imo, but the one that did it gets the credit!
What do you mean by IRA like I know Biden is of Irish descent and I would whole heartedly support an American backed IRA but I doubt thats what happened.
The Inflation Reduction Act- link to one page summary
It’s the “Inflation Reduction Act”
AKA The Build Back Better bill minus everything progressives and leftists fought for.
Huge win if you’re a moderate or a liberal. Yet another slap in the face if you’re slightly left of either.
I’m not sure the ends justify the means.
? There are no “means”. all you can do is vote, and then something is going to happen depending on who wins. It’s not “do bad thing to get good result”, it’s “do neutral thing to get less bad result” or “do nothing to get shite result”.
Is voting not a means to elect Joe Biden to prevent Trump?
I don’t think the Palestinians suffering a genocide will see the “means” of voting for Biden as #neutral. This is the disconnect, many of us are selfishly more concerned about our menial lives than we are for people across the world; when the reality is we are no more important than they are. Either we’re all humans, or none of us are.
Palestinians are going dislike Trump a whole lot more.
What’s project 2025?
Project 2025 is a conservative plan to immediately reshape the executive branch and replace most people with Trump loyalists immediately if he wins. It includes dismantling the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, because while Republicans like to claim to be tough on crime, they really don’t like an independently functioning Justice Department that has shown their leader to be a criminal.
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You incorrectly assume the rich fucks care. They’d just reform into an underground group no longer bound to any pesky laws stopping them from killing whoever they want at any time.
They’re not already?
A maga movement to seize power and turn the US into a theocratic dictatorship.
A fascist purging of government the Republicans have planned if Trump wins.
Yet another reason the working class must NEVER disarm.
The same fearmongering we heard in 2016 and 2020. You must save Democracy for the 12th year in a row by voting Democrat!!
After Trump dies some other Republican will take over that says crazier shit and then you must keep saving Demoracy by always voting Democrat. Never vote third party.
Well historically I’ve voted independent. I’m Canadian, but we have similar party issues.
Honestly seeing shit like this though, if it really is just fearmongering, it’s fucking working. This shit looks horrifying to me, I’d probably end up voting for Biden just to not let trump in. And I fucking hate Biden.
Canadian
Oh boy. How about the recent fumble of electoral reform by the Liberal party in Canada eh?
“Oopsie poopsie, now you HAVE TO vote for us or yous gets the conservatives again! LOL!”
Haha bro don’t even get me started on that shit. Boils my blood.
Trump already won in 2016 and the world didn’t end back then. It’s not going to be better than Biden but it sure as hell isn’t going to be as bad as people here make it out to be.
I hope you’re right. It went about how I thought it would go last time. That insurrection thing threw me though. And all the court cases coming after trump, as well as that project 2025 thing, this time seems different to me.
If the Dems were serious about prosecuting him he wouldn’t get bailed out at the last second every time.
Also Dems purposely delayed the inserruction case now the verdict won’t be until after the election. Real convenient now nothing can stop Trump except voting for Biden.
I have been really annoyed with the protest vote arguments because our system is horseshit and we still have to play within it, but there is no disagreeing with this. I’ll be voting a lot of these useless assholes back in this time as a last-ditch effort, but a purge of the bad actors is long in order. I lost faith in our institutions with Trump in charge, but when it’s come down to punishing that hunk of offal, nothing the dems have done has brought that faith back.
To be honest though, even if things in that situation were going better, I’d still be unconvinced. Outside said institutions, I truly believe that we are not participating in a society, we haven’t been for decades, and that’s got nothing to do with the government.
If that’s actually their game plan, then that’s the most idiotic game plan I’ve ever seen and it is definitely going to put trump back in the White House.
They can’t seriously be that stupid though. Can they?
I think it could be possible that this is the game plan they’re going with because it’s lazy and won’t piss off any donors, which doing things actual leftists want would definitely do.
It almost did. There was a mob of people just a couple doors away from murdering most of congress and making Trump a dictator.
The only reason Trump failed to end democracy is because he and the rest of the Republican party were just trying things without a real plan.
They have a plan now. If they get a chance to use it, they will be successful.
The Democrats sure waited a long time to prosececute Trump with that. Now the result of that trial will be after the election. Thank Democrats for saving Trump from jail.
The American fascist party was born prematurely. They’ve spent the last eight years incubating within the Republican party and are ready to go mask-off now.
Bush was way worse than Trump.
Aside from saying some real dumb shit Trumps presidency was a lot milder than expected.
I would agree with you, except for COVID. That shit was nuts. Trump would have easily won re-election if he just let scientists make decisions.
Edit: Thinking about it more, you’re right. War and occupation directly and indirectly claimed the lives of about a half-million Iraqis from 2003 to 2011
But throughout it all, life went on. The people of Germany lived in and often simply accepted the new normal that came with the rise of fascism –- a state of normalcy that, if the war had ended differently, could have become normal, everyday life for much of the rest of Europe as well. source
What a charmed life you must lead. I wasn’t really affected by his policies either but have you noticed the way things have been turning for the people his goons have been targeting since the chuds became empowered?
It is imperative that we bury the GOP first. Then, we absolutely can and should go knives out on Team Blue™️. I don’t disagree that Biden needs to go, and that most of the Democrats are obstacles at best to truly repairing our long-dead society. Hell, don’t just vote, actually fucking run for office, start somewhere where you aren’t so completely outgunned by the moneyed interests but you also actually make a difference. But for now, we need to take down the more immediate threat.
Throw rocks at me for saying it, but the Dems’ fecklessness is our fault too, to an extent. The problem is complacency when the pendulum appears to have swung in our direction, like “yeah we got the job done!* Let’s have pizza and congratulate ourselves and go back home!” Fortunately, it may finally no longer be the case. But for christ’s sake, can we not throw the baby out with the bathwater? The upcoming, inevitable fight will be less harrowing if we can keep from actively making the battlefield more hazardous, which absolutely will happen with a Trump win.
*christ, I remember when Obama was elected and there was a false prospect of healthcare reform, Newsweek published a rather insulting cover saying, “we are all socialists now”, simultaneously feeding the right’s paranoia and patronizing the left in such an insulting way
You’re not going to bury the GOP by voting Democrat. You will just worsen the situation.
Biden is continuing to build the wall, jailed twice as many immigrants as Trump, is committing Genocide, and so much more. Biden is just a GOP candidate with D in front of his name. He is one of the biggest establishment democrats who has built his career on empowering the elites.
Fine. Trump ‘24 then. Whatever, he’ll fix it.
The line is wearing thin, since democracy keeps being in greater peril even when we elect Democratic majorities.
Democrats would rather protect the filibuster than democracy.
Democrats would rather lose the election to a fascist than stop aiding a genocide.
Should republicans win, do you think the thing you are talking about will get better or worse?
Pointing out that Biden will lose if he continues supporting genocide is not supporting Trump.
That is correct. However, their comment implies that there are people not voting for biden due to his participation, and my question still stands.
Those people not voting for biden because of his stance merely ensure that the thing they dont want to happen will happen on a much larger scale - abroad and at home.
Everything is getting worse regardless.
Let’s get it over with.
We aren’t Russia (for now). We can still effect change at the state level by getting rid of First Past The Post voting and passing comprehensive electoral reform.
When they’re both doing genocide, does it matter?
It does when one wants to do more genocide, and make it local.
Certainly there will be no blowback for allowing a genocide to occur to prevent fascism.
Pass electoral reform in your state first, then you can vote third party with zero chance of a spoiler effect.
Check out a video on First Past the Post voting if you’d like to learn more.
a boogeyman
I just perused the Wikipedia page, doesn’t seem like a boogeyman to me. Considering it’s backed by the Heritage Foundation. It seems horrifying to be honest.
Don’t worry. I’m sure they don’t really mean to install Trump as the president for life, make LGBTQ+ illegal, instill Christianty as the state religion, deploy the military for law enforcement, etc, etc. Hitler didn’t REALLY mean he was gonna kill millions of people!
I don’t think they can pull it off. it’s a ghost story.
Let me guess- if you are American you stopped hanging out with your right-wing neighbors/family? Because for some insane reason, I didn’t. This is 100% what they actually believe. They really think that anything left of Trump is part of the deep state conspiracy, homeschool their kids, think that bringing back “god” in school/state will fix everything, that Trump will save the country, etc, etc. Some of them already know about project 2025 and have greeted it with thunderous applause, the rest of the right will too.
If you are not American, fuck off. You have no idea how bad the right-wingers really have becomeyou don’t know anything about me
this whole comment is attacking me personally rather than refuting anything I said
Its not, but plenty of Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate and not voting is the answer. Its why theyll spam anything and everything about the Gaza genocide to the front page while not so sneakily inserting comments like this or, “gEnOciDe JoE” in the middle of it all.
>not voting is the answer
no one said that
Or maybe people have a legitimate moral concern when their country is aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide?
Two things can be happening. People with a legitimate moral concern, such as myself, don’t actively act against that concern by helping elect a candidate who would make that concern even worse. There are ways to express our anger and sorrow about Biden’s handling of this without supporting Trump.
Biden is going to lose if he continues his genocidal policy in Gaza.
People like me put pressure on the Biden admin to change course. By engaging in good faith criticism, I am trying to get Biden elected.
People who refuse to criticize Biden enable him to continue on this losing path. Enabling the worst of the Biden administration’s policies is helping to elect Trump.
(Spoiler)
If that means they take (in)action that lets Donnie win a second term, they don’t
this is incoherent. i think it has snark poisoning.
Orange man is so bad that you’ll actively support a genocide, very enlightened, great job.
It’s hard to get Americans to care about the death and destruction that occurs at the behest of the American Empire. People like the commenter above see the people of Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, and so on as subhuman cannon fodder. Why should they care about the genocide of those they don’t even see as human. In their eyes, all brown Muslim people and the spectrum of humanity that resides in these countries ravished by our foreign policy, are just simply terrorists. And when younger generations watch these horrors unfold in real time on social media, and advocate for human rights, the knee-jerk reaction of Congress is to ban a social media platform rather than to have any meaningful impact on the situation, as their MIC/corporate/AIPAC donors have dictated.
Ahh, gotcha. Guess we really gotta push for Status Quo Joe harder then unless we want “stepping stone for the de-nazification of Europe” Ukraine to be genocided even harder than they currently are. Or, lemme guess, the russian talking point i see the shills parroting is, “ackshwallee, Ukraine has some guns/ammo so that mustn’t be a genocide,” right?
I prefer genocide Joe. Or Beholden-to-Israeli-corporate-interests Robinet Biden.
>Lemmy accounts are running around with a vested interest of convincing one and all that Biden and Dump are the exact same candidate
if this were true you could show one.
^^^
Ill add return2ozma, linkerbaan, and tokenboomer off the top of my head. Each karmawhoring to keep themselves visible.
>Each karmawhoring to keep themselves visible.
i don’t think you understand how lemmy’s vote system works.
none of them have said that
Well, you, for a start.
I have never said that
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demanding evidence is not astroturfing.
they couldn’t keep bush 1 in office, no one takes their economic freedom index seriously, they didn’t stop Obamacare… they’re a joke.
You say that as if Obamacare was what we actually wanted. They wrote what became Obamacare decades before the tea party threw their tantrums over it, their opposition to it was political theater and the chance to water it down even further
Possible genocide in the USA should one of the two viable presidential candidates gets elected?
Will the democrats stop pursuing gun control considering this imminent threat of genocide?
I’m still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that’s how I feel.
Instead of picking between a genocide and another you should just vote for someone else and don’t support any criminal.
Damn, that’s at least a full step above a “Huh” with an inquisitively arched eyebrow.
His finger is dangerously close to wagging.
Like Mutumbo?
I don’t know if he’d go THAT far.
😂
You know what would aid Gaza? Not giving money and weapons to the people blowing them up
Wrote this before and I’ll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:
Tough for Biden to balance between:
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Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
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Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).
The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.
The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn’t just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn’t hear the words, “indiscriminate bombing” from Trump’s facial sphincter.
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Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.
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Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.
So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?
Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.
The caveat being missed here is that aid to Israel is also contingent on their defense. If the long-time precedent for aid to Israel is withdrawn and more Jews die, how do you think that is going to bode for the votes of — let me check — 7.6 million Jewish Americans? Trump gets in, and then what? Biden fails the purity test and everyone critical of Biden pats themselves on the backs as Trump steamrolls Palestinians not just indirectly but directly?
Vote for genocide, because if you don’t there’s gonna be more genocide. Y’all doing backflips to cover your violent beliefs.
Ah yes, that’s a completely accurate and fair description of the choice at hand and totally 100% not an obvious straw-man fallacy, leaving aside the cute little purity pyrrhic victory you’re setting yourself up for.
actually,there wouldn’t be anymore genocide had the 2 state solution been accepted.
i mean to hamas, peace is shit but death is an honor.
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It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s
Whenever you give me a data-driven solution to the problem I proposed with the 7.6 million Jewish Americans who are sympathetic to Israel and Biden definitely needing their vote more so than the 160,000 Palestinian Americans, you let me know.
Oh so then genocide is okay as long as it let’s you win an election?
Way to completely miss the point. Impressive, really.
There wasn’t a point. It was a denial that anything need to be done because the data says electoral politics are more important than stopping another genocide.
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican if anything happened to Israel, which is also ridiculous to say while asking for data driven anything.
Even if Biden withdrew all aid to Israel, the genocide persists. So, now what?
They also seem to think all jews in the United States are pro Isreal based on saying 8 million would be angered enough to vote republican i
There you go again with the straw-man fallacies. What’s heavily ironic about this is I’ve heard ad nauseum about the 160,000 Palestinian Americans and what they might do should Biden not change his position. I already gave the PEW data indicating a sizable chunk of those 8 million are indeed supportive of Israel and no matter how you cut it, there’s a greater risk to Biden’s reelection.
But moreover think about just how short-sighted your thinking is here. Even if Biden stops the aid now and it backfires for Biden’s reelection, then Trump gets in — where will you be? Will you be celebrating and patting yourself on the back because Biden shot himself in the foot while Trump steamrolls Palestinians?
I think you just might.
It’s intentional. Best guess is these are either wedge-driving trolls, or very young and naive sub-20-year-olds full of idealism but lacking a particular degree of foresight.
Yes anyone who disagrees must be young or a troll. Great rebuttal there
Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than an election. If LBJ had taken your advice, Civil Rights would never have happened in America.
A brilliant political analyst, Johnson foresaw the consequences of his civil rights legislation on the day he signed it into law. He is said to have remarked: “We’ve lost the south for a generation.” historical data
Apples and oranges in my view; for Is there any law that Biden can sign right now?
Is there anything Biden can do right now that won’t be immediately reversed by Trump and orders-of-magnitude worse?
Hence why under these circumstances, in my opinion, following the polling data and ensuring election is paramount.
In the meantime we should all be focused not on criticizing Biden but targeting the pro-Israeli voters and trying to sway them. If you change them, the polling changes, and so too will Biden’s position.
And ultimately that’s exactly what we’ve seen over the last couple of months.
You’d sell your mother into slavery to get Biden elected, that much is obvious. You have no moral framework for any of your so-called “principles,” your only concern is winning. Which is precisely how we got to this point after the third-way Democrats compromised with neoliberalism by allowing corporate donations to dominate their party. Compromising your humanity by settling with the lesser evil is still evil.
Hahaha I’m sorry, what? Now you’re just going off the deep end.
I’d rather ensure my mother doesn’t live with Trump as president for another 4 years. It’s not good for her blood pressure.
Unfortunately you just seem far too short-sighted to comprehend the big picture, here. You’d rather manufacture purity tests for the Democrats even if that means holding the door open for literal evil. Classic pyrrhic victory.
Lambast Democrats all you want. Yet Every Single progressive advancement we’ve had in this country has come through the Democratic party.
Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that’s the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.
Just scream “vote blue no matter who” at the pro-Israel Biden supporters.
I’m sick of people not saying the quiet part out loud: If every time there is a choice between doing the things progressives and leftists want the threat of moderate and liberal voters abandoning the party then we’re fucked anyway. Even if you’re optimistic and say “No no, the number of progressives and leftists is growing! We just have to be patient!” Guess what happens when progressives and leftists finally start winning primaries? That’s right, moderates and liberals will abandon the party.
There no point in delaying any longer. If the moderates and liberals will abandon the party if Biden stopped sending weapons to Israel then let’s get it over with.
That phrase was never meant for center right democrats, it was only there to sheepdog those who demand candidates not beholden to the billionaire class. You can’t “vote blue no matter who” those types, they’ll vote republican because at the end of the day most of them belong to social classes not threatened by conservatism, 4 years is no skin off their back, they may even see their IRAs grow. We’re nothing but a voting bloc to them, and that’s why things like Malcolm X’s quote on white moderates is so relatable to many non black progressives, both groups know what it’s like to be only included in appearance and only spoken to when votes are needed. How many more black elected officials do we have now, and yet the Democrats still fail Black voters perennially. I would have to ignore 60 year of history to think the progressive cause would do better if (and that’s a big if) we can get more of them elected. If there’s a path forward through the democratic party, it’s eluded the black community for long enough to see cop lynchings increase and I don’t think ‘progressive issues’ like ‘stop killing the environment before we all die’ have the time necessary to go the same route that’s been taken from Malcolm X to now.
Entropy is a thing.
What I mean by that is it’s far, far easier to smash a puzzle than to put it back together, let alone to incorporate new pieces. The damage done by Trump in merely 4 years could not be reversed if you got AOC with Bernie in there in 8 years let alone possibly 4. At this juncture, with the fragility of our system and the courts already stacked, maintaining some semblance of stability is overwhelmingly more crucial than expecting massive leaps.
I’m all for going full anti-Israel; but that doesn’t change the fact that every single political advisor is pointing Biden to precarious polling data; that blindly withdrawing all aid to Israel is simply NOT a popular position going into the election — at least yet.
Then they’re shit at their jobs. This is public research polling, which usually lags behind internal private research.
Good advisors would have been telling him support is trending down for months at this point. If you’re going to govern by polls, you should be getting ahead of them. Not throwing out bullshit self certification stuff for military aid to cover for the genocidal regime you’re illegally sending arms to.
Isn’t that exactly what Biden is doing? Biden is shifting his stance inline with the polls and it’s working. While I do appreciate a leader who is willing to be bold and lead from the front regardless of public opinion because they can be very influential — I can see why they would be very nervous about getting ahead of the polls.
For as I said: If he does something drastic like withdrawing aid to Israel and Israel gets hit with another October 7th-level attack — manufactured or legitimate — he’d be done for. There’s no suddenly stopping the inertia we’ve had for Israel as a foreign policy position for decades that has largely shared bipartisan support.
And I mean come on, really? Do you really think you genuinely know better than his advisors and strategists and that they’re “shit at their jobs”? It’s a cute, confident thing to say… But if you’re really doubling down on that, perhaps you should contact them or look for a job opportunity. What’s more is that while your polling shows people disapprove of Israel’s actions, what we should do in response is the obvious follow-up, and withdrawing aid to them likely doesn’t share the same popularity. I wouldn’t want to be in Biden’s position or his strategists.
Nothing you said negates the uncomfortable reality: If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with leftists and progressives then fascism can’t be avoided. Do you want it now or later?
Unfortunately it goes both ways; the difference is the “moderates and liberals” are the majority of the coalition while the progressives as the minority also know better enough to know what’s at stake from playing chicken with the moderates who probably can’t comprehend the game you’re even trying to threaten. I don’t buy into argument that it’s “fascism now or later,” — for that remains entirely speculative.
You clearly didn’t read my original comment.
I did.
I re-read it.
I still disagree with the conclusion.
These are his ‘only’ choices only because identifying the broader issue of Israeli occupation and settlement (the core complaints of Palestinians and the reason why Hamas exists) puts at risk US interests in the region - namely Israel’s projection of strength throughout the middle east.
The protection of US neo-colonial and imperial interests is the reason why Biden is in a tough position, and the reason why leftists will never be satisfied by stern words by Biden.
It would not be the end for Biden. That’s hyperbole. Also why are we pressuring anti genocide people to come out and vote regardless, but taking it for granted that pro genocide people can’t be pressured at all.
You know who you’re never going to get to vote for Biden again? The Muslim communities that are actually in mourning right now because they know people dying in Gaza. The same ones that are key voting groups in the Rust Belt. Which is the same area that Trump used to win in 2016.
The Republicans are already calling him terrorist pedophile. Doing something to stop the GOP from running baseless attack ads is useless.
The only one trying to lose this election is Biden. There are legions of progressives ready to hold their noses and vote for him. But he keeps running to the right. And we’ll keep staying home.
You’re saying he’d be fine if a terrorist attack occurred after withdrawing aid to Israel? Sorry I just can’t agree with that. He’d be toast and the 7 million Jewish Americans would turn on him in a second, amplified all the more by right-wing propaganda that doesn’t just influence Republicans but the centrists and even many Democrats.
He’s doing quite the opposite from running to the right. He’s completely shifted his position from lockstep support for Israel to letting ceasefire votes go through and publicly calling out Netanyahu.
Biden already signaled he’d be harder on Israel than Trump. There really isn’t any more that needs to be said. It’s holding the nose and supporting Biden now for the next 8 months or suffer 4 years of the far, far worse guy.
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“They have a point,” Biden said after the protesters were escorted out. “We need to get a lot more care into Gaza.”
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Still, the Biden administration decided to pause funding, and other big donors did the same. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, says she understands that UNRWA is the only international organization with the capacity to help deliver food, flour and fuel to Palestinians in Gaza, but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
And even after we found out the allegations were bullshit and confessions were after torture, both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
Biden is literally responsible for this, but is acting like it’s just some random thing and maybe he’ll help out.
You’re not entirely wrong, but Biden has bipartisan backing on this as it’s part of the whole funding bill, which makes most of the repesentatives and senators complicit with Biden which this bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
Still, like how a massive frigate turns slowly, the actions of the State Department are showing a change of tune, and the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide. The first steps are to abstain from ceasefire resolutions and then to give the protestors attention and credibility. There are many more steps to go.
I’d really like to believe that but the cynic in me expects that as soon as Israel gets done with their genocide campaign they’ll pretend that they’ve turned a new leaf and all funding and military assistance will resume as though nothing had happened. There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
There will be no lasting consequences for Israel’s actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
Not concrete political action no, but make no mistake Israel has lost a lot of international support in this war, and support for them is now more concentrated among older people. I’ll be cautiously hopeful that we’ll see real change from the West in the next 20 or so years as the older generations die off and more people grow up hearing about Israel committing their second genocide.
I hope you’re right.
Republicans are always gonna disrupt any real action anyway, they are full mask-off on the Christian nationalism thing and believe they must support Isreal 100% no matter what to make jesus come back.
nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide
The US is doing far more than covering for it, we are enabling it via massive funding and contributing the very bombs being used to decimate Gaza and murder 10s of thousands of civilians. Biden’s willingness to let Bibi order us around and use us as cover is absolutely pathetic - Biden, and by proxy the US, are completely captured by the far-right extremist government of a foreign nation state. This is the weakest posturing imaginable for a world leader, and it’s entirely because Biden is a genocidal Zionist freak.
“Bipartisan backing” in DC means one thing only - Congress is getting paid. It’s gross that AIPAC can buy air cover for a genocide so easily, but such is the extent of corruption in the US.
We are 6 months into this ethnic cleansing, and these baby steps are not nearly enough at this juncture. For fuck’s sake even Trump beat Biden to the natural conclusion of demanding Israel put a stop to this. The bar is so low it’s literally on the ground and Biden just faceplants in front of it. Pathetic.
“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail
bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.
You forgot banning aid to UNRWA…
the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel’s genocide.
Voters are, and have been.
But can you name a Dem in a party leadership position that doesn’t take AIPAC money?
There are many more steps to go.
That’s what they told FDR 80 years ago when he was trying to get universal healthcare past a Dem controlled Congress…
There’s so many steps left to go, it’s functionally infinite. Because Republicans take more steps back then Dems take forward.
Biden spent a billion dollars in 2020 to just barely convince voters he was better than trump. I don’t know you, but if you had a billion dollar campaign, I bet you could have wiped the floor with trump.
Wait are we electing @rentlar as the Lemmy candidate? I dunno if they’re eligible.
When the only other two options can’t crack 33% approval, a random unknown person is kind of a shoe in…
I’d bet money no foreign government has donated to their campaign at least.
They wouldn’t need it as badly if someone didn’t go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA…
Or if someone hadn’t sold Netanyahu weapons in the first place. Or if someone didn’t run interference for Netanyahu at the UN.
but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.
both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.
How is Biden literally responsible for everyone uniting on that point?
He went around Congress to give billions to Israel, and to ban aid to UNRWA causing mass starvation
Then Congress included both in the budget.
Any other questions?
Any comment on the fact that donors paying for aid to UNRWA wanted this, or that it was bipartisan and - as you just pointed out - it was Congress that put it in the budget?
Why is everything all Biden’s fault, when you have already said in multiple points that other people were pushing for it also?
Why is everything all Biden’s fault
Because he’s the boss. The president is always considered the leader of their party while they’re in office. That’s why Truman said, “The buck stops here.”
If an organization does something, the leader of that organization needs to accept responsibility or admit they’re an ineffective leader.
He’s the leader of the party, but this had bipartisan support.
I’m not saying he’s not responsible, just that they all are. Also he has to be careful with it being election year and being up against Trump.
If you have the power to unilaterally hinder a genocide and instead you use that power to enable it, you are culpable.
He’s definitely culpable, but he’s far from the only one.
Sure, just the one with the most ability to act on his own. His culpability is proportional to that. He’s used that ability previously to aid Israel, he could use that same power to hinder them, but chooses not to.
the one with the most ability to act on his own
Maybe 3 years ago he would’ve been, but right now, with an election coming up against Trump and his Maggats, he’s in a very precarious position.
Why is everything all Biden’s fault
Because before it was included in the budget, Biden went around Congress to do both via executive order.
And I think the other bit is you’re confused about what “donors” meant, like are you thinking it’s private citizens donating money and the government now won’t let them?
I’m not trying to be insulting, but from context that seems to be your impression
Israel controls both sides of American politics. What’s your point?
then stop doing it instead of pretending to care ffs
It’s funny cause as far as I can tell, Americans are the ones pretending to suddenly care about Arabs.
What a strange comment. They’re being genocided. I’m imagining someone in WW2 being like “well now you suddenly care about Jews when you find out the holocaust is happening”, as if that was a bad thing.
It is a bad thing, because it correctly indicates that those people didn’t care about the creation and growth of the social conditions that caused that genocide in the first place.
Gaza didn’t turn into a killing field and prison overnight. This has been designed for decades by Israel. We are all culpable fools for allowing it to ever deteriorate to this point
That’s true. And personally I feel really bad that I was only aware of the history of this conflict very recently, too. But it’s good that people are changing their minds and opening their eyes. We shouldn’t shame them, but pat them on the backs for coming around. Keep in mind that the US especially has been inundated with a crazy amount of propaganda surrounding Israel for a long time. Lots of these latecomers are victims, not willingly ignorant. People have spent millions of dollars lobbying to keep it that way. (Not just Jewish people, it’s not some conspiratorial Jewish cabal before the wrong type of poeple jump on agreeing with my comment lol. The military industrial complex is involved and lots of other actors interested in Middle Eastern affairs and Christian zealotry.)
Agreed, and certainly anyone who has come around and had their eyes opened to what Zionism is should be praised for doing so.
But I don’t see anything wrong with stigmatizing a prior failure to discern the truth. While it is true that immense propaganda has facilitated the brainwashing of Americans for decades, it is still our responsibility as human beings, and as voters, to always seek truth. Failure to accurately do so is a failing and should be viewed as such
Americans have cared about arabs one way or the other since 2001, we had wars over this, we took in refugees and interpreters. No one older than 12 thinks this is sudden.
It’s a stretch to say that going to war in the middle east indicated “care” about/for Arab people.
Also, I haven’t checked but I’d bet good money that we’ve gone back on more promises than we’ve actually honored WRT interpreters.
Meaning, to be clear:
We’ve promised a lot of interpreters U.S. visas / citizenship if they helped us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and have probably blocked more from entry to the U.S. than we have allowed.
That is utterly fucked up, and I don’t see why anyone would trust such promises from the U.S. in the future.
I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden’s handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.
I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.
Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing “simple” solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.
Let’s not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.
Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There’s a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.
So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?
This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
You can use that rationale to justify any invasion against a weaker nation. All it takes is the lack of morality to justify horrific crimes. Your logic falls flat on its face in cases where force and coercion end up having the opposite effect than your stated goal. Countries in the Middle East are finding themselves more and more inclined to do business with China in times of increased threats and sanctions from the US. The “Great Satan” is hated by the population exactly because of the “diplomacy” that you advocate for. An increased resentment among the population influences politics, which drives these countries closer to enemies to the US.
if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.
So if Zionist government officials don’t steal taxpayer money in order to fund their Zionist invasion of the Middle East, Israel will kill more people. So Israel must be supported in order to kill less people. Nice logic.
A cornered rat can only do so much before it gets exhausted. It’s better to corner a rat and have it rage rather than pouring in all its cousins to make it feel safer in order to pacify it.
I have to point out that your “diplomacy” perfectly aligns with the Zionist project, which does involve a genocide as has been documented time and time again.
I don’t like to attack the person besides the argument, but in this case I don’t think you deserve the benefit of the doubt because of your colossal lack of empathy and unwillingness to consider solutions that don’t involve supporting a full-scale invasion. What’s more disgusting than an overtly wicked individual is one who hides behind talks of nuance and who uses fancy deductions (with false premises) in order to put wool in front of people’s eyes.
Right and next Satan is going to tap dance on your kitchen counter.
You just stated the point of OPs post. It’s not like when we sent arms to them since the 80s Biden was suddenly like “ok go kill babies”. We should definitely suspend future transactions until at least the end of the current government term though. This whole US is equally responsible is a bit much though.
I’m never leaving lemmy. I love the way it’s common to see normal sane views being widely accepted. I can breathe here.
It’s really refreshing. We do have our share of crazies, as my block list can attest, but for the most part people are willing to accept that sometimes situations can be really complicated.
This is one of those ones that sounds rational but really isn’t.
Nobody said we have to leave Israel completely in the wind. They just want weapons deliveries to stop. Other countries aren’t worried about Democrats holding their alliances. They’re worried the Democrats are following the Republicans down the hole and supporting extreme religious parties. You show your allies you value them by listening to them, not by vetoing their anti starvation measures in the UN for several months.
If genocide isn’t a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us “for the good of our country” just opens the door to more moral failures. And we’re the ones that will have to live in that system.
Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it’s not a country that’s entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel’s unique political position.
It’s that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?
You managed to unironically demonstrate the point of the person you responded to.
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Fuck all those willing to commit atrocities in the name of land or religion.
And especially Netanyahu and gang who do it for monetary profits.
bullying works. if it didn’t, bullies would do something else.
Biden from today is sure saying something different:
U.S. Finds Israel in Compliance With Biden’s Demands on International Law, Humanitarian Aid
‘We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,’ the State Department said
posts something the Biden did not say
That’s Bidens demands
Amazing, they actually got him to say something after like the nth protest at his rallies after 6 months.
If we keep this up, he’ll eventually talk about how he was totally gonna refund UNRWA after he loses in November.
Except he completely missed the point.
“We need to get more aid into Gaza” is very much not “we need to stop arming Israel so much.”
Joe Brandon be like
No fucking shit decent human beings have a point, that could easily be taken as dismissal.
Please act, and end Israel’s reign of horror.
you have a point now shut up
I’m wondering just how damageable in terms of geopolitics would a deterioration of relations with Israel be. Cause it has to be huge to justify not acting on this genocide. What stops Biden/US from acting ? what can I read to better understand this issue ?
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the US sees Israel as the only thing it can control in the middle east. it was always meant to be one of a few “pro-democracy beachheads” in the area, with the US attempting to make iraq work the same way in the 2000s. The idea was to put Israel in a position where they were powerful compared to their enemies but dependent on foreign aid, so that they could do whatever they want as long as they also did whatever we want. This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook - you don’t send people to take over, and instead you elevate one local group from second or third place to the top and then make sure they never develop enough power that they can remain on top without your help. If you do this successfully, you can control them completely because all you have to do to send them tumbling from power is nothing when they’re counting on your support.
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Up until now, the impact of helping Israel didn’t have to be all that massive because the impact of Israeli violence against Palestinians (edit: ON THE OPINION OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN) wasn’t either. What you’re seeing is a replay of the US allowing anyone with a camera to report from Vietnam - the narrative used to be pretty tightly controlled but between Palestinian social media updates and Israel’s internal jingoistic propaganda being leaked to the western world it’s becoming harder and harder to sustain the whole ‘most moral army in the world engaged in a limited defensive operation that respects the right of all law-abiding people to live in peace’ narrative. We see them shooting at people gathered around aid trucks now. We hear them talking about “children of light vs children of darkness”, “every Palestinian is a terrorist because they all support Hamas” and seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos. Americans tend to like war in theory, but we have a strong sense of fair play and we’ll only stay on board up to a certain amount of video of unarmed people being mowed down by soldiers. This is why they’re simultaneously softening their position on Palestine and moving to seize the only major social media outlet that isn’t US-based (and therefore isn’t able to be pressured about ‘misinformation’ the way that FB, X, reddit, etc are). It’s a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they’re never again put in a position where they’re beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.
point one is also why the chosen rhetoric in opposition of the genocide is targeted at Netanyahu specifically rather than the entire administration, because rather than loosing relations with Israel as a country, the US wants to oust Netanyahu and have someone else they support take his place. That way they can keep their post-colonial pet in the middle east without looking like they’re (still) supporting a genocide.
The problems with this, though, are:
- the US would still be engaged in a post-colonial imperialist action in the Middle East
- the broader Israel-Palestine relationship will almost certainly stay the same regardless, and I think a lot of American’s opinion on Israel has been pretty irrevocably damaged since this new phase of conflict started.
you’re absolutely right. nothing good ever happens just because it’s good, and this is no different. brandon is currently trying to figure out a way to keep power in both America and the middle east, and built into the british model for post-settler-colonial hegemony is the precise lever that he’s trying to pull. Namely “either you quit fucking this up for me or I’ll fuck everything up for you so badly that you’ll cease to exist”
seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos
Whoever buys that land to make those needs to be harassed for the rest of their lives. That’s absolute scum of the earth bullshit. Religion and real estate all in one gigantic shit storm… Literally the worst humanity has to offer.
Thanks a bunch. Yeah that makes a lot of sense
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Israel uses a significant amount of the $$ the US gives them to lobby (IOW, bribe) members of the US political parties to support them. Including giving them more $$, in a positive feedback loop. The lobbied polits in effect give themselves money along with what Israel keeps.
This is the answer. Everything else may have been more true in the past. But the lobby has become so entrenched, that this is the answer.
Alright thanks for the clarification
What stops Biden/US from acting ?
Are red or blue going to lose the elections? They are making money and expanding their power why should they stop?
From my understanding, we need good relations with israel to have a stable military oresence in the middle east
I see. Appreciate the clarification
It would be terrible for the West
We would have to permanently ship around the cape of Africa and abandon oil based economies
It also brings about a large issue for future wars due to strategic positioning
And allies won’t trust the US to defend them so you’re better off aligning with Russia or China
Dark Brandon, come forth and high five one of them.
It’s been almost six months, you could’ve said something before now.
You didn’t watch the State of the Union speech, huh?
I’ve found the whole ‘genocide joe’ crowd very rarely listens to anything joe actually says and live off a drip feed of .ml misinfo posts
People can say whatever they want, but it’s actions that matter. And his actions have generally been supportive of Israel, including going around Congress to give them aid and weapons and vetoing UN resolutions for ceasefires.
No, instead we watched his actions. Such as banning aid for the UNRWA, blocking Un resolutions against Israel, sidestepping congress to ship them weapons, ensuring billions in funding go their way.
But wow he was totally mean to them in a speech, i guess thats what matters.
UN Security Council passes resolution calling for Gaza ceasefire 2 days ago By Raffi Berg,BBC News Watch: Moment UN passes Gaza ceasefire resolution
The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, after the US did not veto the measure in a shift from its previous position. It also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. It is the first time the council has called for a ceasefire since the war began in October after several failed attempts. The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel’s offensive in Gaza.
Seems like action to me. Yeah a lot more needs to be done, but his words and actions are meeting.
I’m not sure if calling “the US chose to finally stop vetoing UN resolutions” as action. They didn’t vote in the affirmative. By the time the current administration does something to actually change things like refusing to send weapons, there won’t be any more Palestinians left who haven’t forever lost their family, home, or life.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Two protesters were escorted out of the Raleigh, North Carolina, venue after they cut off the president mid-remarks, shouting, “What about the health care in Gaza?”
Biden has faced numerous anti-war protests during his events in the months since the Israel-Hamas war began Oct. 7, and especially as calls have grown for his administration to take stronger action on the civilian death toll in Gaza.
In the weeks after he was interrupted about a dozen times during a January abortion rights speech, his team worked to minimize disruptions by making Biden’s events smaller and withholding their precise locations longer than usual.
During his State of the Union address this month, Biden announced that he was directing the U.S. military to establish a “temporary pier in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast” for aid delivery.
At the same time, Biden and top allies have ramped up criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government’s approach to the war.
Biden, who served as vice president when the ACA was passed by Congress, has made preserving access to health care a central part of his re-election bid.
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