Members of Kibbutz Hanita near Israel’s northern border are demanding $11 million from Ballet Vision, the Chinese fund that controls 80% of the Hanita Lenses plant, accusing it of refusing to exercise an option to purchase the kibbutz’s remaining shares, according to a lawsuit filed in Tel Aviv District Court.
In a response letter attached to the lawsuit, the Chinese fund said that since the outbreak of the war in Israel, Beijing has classified Israel as a “high-risk area” and imposed a ban on any new Chinese investments in the country, making it impossible to carry out the option.
According to the lawsuit, in 2021 the kibbutz sold 74% of Hanita Lenses, which manufactures intraocular lenses for medical use, to Ballet Vision for $35 million. Of that sum, $25 million was paid to kibbutz members, with an additional $10 million injected into the company.
The PRC is socialist, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state.
Explains all the super wealthy oligarchs 🤔
The PRC has a bourgeoisie, but the bourgeoisie owns only the secondary firms and below, not the principle aspects of the economy, and has no political power.
Thats not really true, is it? And if it were as you originally describes it (socialist etc.) these people would be hung as enemies of the state.
I can’t believe anyone can stomach supporting a country that killed thousands of its people in a crackdown on political dissidents, then implemented forty years of martial law, killed twelve thousand more in concentration camps, and disappeared thousands more with death squads.
I’m talking about Taiwan, but the way.
It’s absolutely true. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy in the PRC, and the working classes control the state. For example, when looking at publicly owned industries, we can see the following:
Even checking Wikipedia, data from 2022 shows that the overwhelming majority of the top companies are publicly owned SOEs. This is China’s strategy, they’ve been honest about it from the beginning. The private sector is about half cooperatives like Huawei or farming cooperarives and sole proprietorships, with the other half being small and medium firms. As these grow, they are folded into the public sector gradually. This is China’s Socialist Market Economy.
As for the state being run by the working classes, this is also pretty straightforward. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the CPC, a working class party, dominates the state. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance, and we can see the class breakdown of the top of the government itself:
Overall, this system has resulted in over 90% of the population approving the government, which is shown to be consistent and accurate. If you want to learn more, while not nearly as in-depth due to time limits as Roland Boer’s work (and mostly focused on the Xi Jinping era), Red Pen’s A Summary of Xi Jinping’s Governance of China can be a good primer! There’s also This is how China’s economic model works: Explaining Socialism with Chinese Characteristics by Geopolitical Economy Report.
Socialism is not the absence of private property, but the transition between capitalism and communism, indicated by public ownership as principle. Collectivization of production and distribution is a gradual process, and to dogmatically apply this to secondary and small industry before markets naturally centralize them and prepare them for public ownership isn’t necessary.
I get it. You push propaganda. Your job is to work on China’s rep, right?
Socialism is incompatible with billionaires; full stop. Further, public ownership would imply that it is an expression of the will of the people; obviously this is incongruent with what is effectively an extension of feudalism and not genuine communism nor socialism. Same shit, different flavour.
Lets not forget those massacred at Tianaman or the Uyguhrs or the Taiwanese… Im sure they have thoughts about how glorious the CPC is too 🤔
No? I have a job in the US, that’s what I do for a living.
Says who? Legitimately. Socialism requires public ownership to be the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes in charge of the state, not the absence of private property entirely. No economy is “pure,” which is why Marx focused on developing dialectical materialism as a frame of analysis. Your analysis is metaphysical in nature.
Can you elaborate? I gave a large and well-sourced explanation of China’s economy and democratic structures. China does not have a class of lords, nor peasantry that pay their lords tribute in the form of agrarian goods like rice using parceled out land. This argument of yours is absurd.
Let’s indeed not forget the few hundred deaths in Beijing on June 4th, 1989, and not forget the students on Tian’anmen Square itself that were peacefully dispersed, which even Wikipedia agrees on.
Let’s not forget Xinjiang either. In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
Let’s not forget Taiwan, either, where the nationalists that fled the mainland and slaughtered domestic resistance in the White Terror have solidified.
You have no points.
Hoarding wealth is by definition antithetical to what you claim the PRC is trying to achieve. It is just a wolf in red clothing; the class struggle remains just flavoured in a way that makes it easier for the Chinese people to swallow all while lacking any real input into the system itself and suffering the burden of social credit.
Where you work is irrelevant. You routinely blast CPC propaganda at the expense of the truth. I see you in this situation often.
I would challenge you, forgoing our current debate, criticise the CPC and Xi; surely they are flawed.
The presence of the bourgeoisie, and by extension private property, is in fact a contradiction, in the dialectical sense. This doesn’t mean it is antithetical for private ownership to exist within socialism, however, just that it is something that must be gradually negated. In the PRC, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy. Private ownership is about half sole proprietorships and cooperatives, and the rest governs secondary and medium firms.
The purpose of this is that markets and private ownership naturally centralize into monopoly, ie they socialize as Marx says. As these firms grow, the CPC folds them into the public sector, negating them. To nationalize even the small and medium firms, dogmatically, before they socialize, is contradictory with Marxist analysis.
Class struggle continues under socialism, that’s factually true. It is only when all of production and distribution have been collectivized globally that class struggle can truly be negated. Since we cannot jump straight there, the proletariat stands above the bourgeoisie by holding the state and the state controlling the large firms and key industries.
China’s system is already democratic, as I explained. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance.
Further, the idea of a “social credit score” is a myth. The system was only partially implemented, and is about businesses, not the working classes. The fact that you claim I am the one “blasting propaganda at the expense of truth” as you quite literally are dogmatically spouting propaganda based on fabrications and exaggerations is peak hypocricy.
Sure they are. I’m plenty critical of China for valid reasons, such as their presently poor LGBTQIA+ legislation (though it has been gradually improving) or their backing of Cambodia over Vietnam back during the time of Pol Pot. Your “criticisms,” more often than not, aren’t logically justified.
China hasn’t been actually socialist for a long time
China has been socialist since 1949. Public ownership has been the principle aspect of their economy since then, as well as fact that the working classes control the state.
Hahaha you are quite amusing
Okay? I don’t see what that has to do with anything. Do you actually have a point to raise? What do you think socialism is? Why would you consider past China socialist, and modern China to not be?
You continue to be amusing, friend. Keep up the good work
Gotcha, just nonsense.
Nothing says socialism like international investors owning 99 year leases on factories producing every piece of electronic junk sold in the west! /s Wait a minute, that’s called capitalism.
Are you saying the PRC isn’t socialist because it allows foreign investment in secondary and small-medium industries? These international investment deals are done for knowledge and technology transfer, as well as to expedite development of underdeveloped industry. The basis of socialized production is in large-scale, mass industry, so socializing production through market mechanisms is done in a controlled manner, where the CPC gradually folds these industries into the public sector as they grow.
Public ownership usually works better with higher levels of development, private at lower levels. Keeping the large firms and key industries in the public sector while allowing private capital in a controlled manner to help develop the productive forces is the secret to the PRC’s skyrocketing development. This development is why they have far surpassed the west in production of solar, high speed rail, infrastructural development, poverty alleviation, etc, without this form of economy they would not be as developed as they are today.
The chinese are doing what they can to get the west’s technology, and get their factories built for free, and in doing so getting a veritable veto on western leaders as they could nationalize any or all of those factories at any moment, a drastic move that would upend financial markets but still a powerful bargaining chip, no matter what western leaders say, they aren’t crossing China for real because of that, and the US president is Wall Street’s Bitch make no mistake. Also Israel’s and Russia’s Bitch. Israel first obviously, the Saudis, American oligarchs’ bitch, it’s a long list and idk the pecking order after Israel First that is undisputable, the guy and his party are compromized 7 ways from sunday. (7 ways from saudis too.)
So they are using the greed of the ruling class in the west against it. You can see where they are coming from, they are smart, and play the long game. Not a very good game for the workers of those factories, or people living next to the pollution however. But that is the cost they figure. The problems from all of that are as much, or more, of the fault of the industrialists and wall street that sold out their own countries to make an extra dollar on labor and environmental protections, undercutting unions and liberal democracies that since the great war had taken actual control over much of their governments and achieved a higher standard of living than any working people in the history of the world.
Now eroded, by cheatery. By this so called free trade, eroded most by cheating at the numbers however, changing the consumer price index calculations several times since the 1970s to understate it, 5-8% by the old standard, 2-3 by the new, just by 2008. Compound pay cuts. 1 minimum wage job used to support a family, buy a house, a used car, go out for a burger. Now you can’t do that with 4 minimum wage jobs, you would have shitty to non existant health insurance while doing it, no dentist. Certainly not buying a house. One missed check or two from homelessness. But I digress.
Whatever China is doing now, it’s part of a long game, what the US and west is doing, is short term chiseling of working people, and extracting borrowed money from the government.
I understand how the PRC is playing the west, but this is a good thing for China, and a sign of socialism. Air pollution is going down dramatically as they invest in solar and nuclear, the working classes have seen steady large real wage increases, and the west hollowed out their own industry to their own detriment.
The West is just beyond dumb, handing their governments to a far right in league with the US and Russia that have every intention of helping them fix themselves in power permanently, and they still see their reason for being as preventing popular reform and playing good cop to conservative bad cop like it’s 1990 and they are plutocracizing the country. The countries are already plutocratized, there isn’t much left to chisel down, not without sparking such a backlash that the far right running as reform backed by the US and Russia behind the scenes will get in for sure.
Just fucking hopeless, and anyone thinking that it’s good for the US to suffer what their government has done to other people, is a short sighted dumbshit argument that blames the wrong people as much as any western voter. The ones that will suffer in the US are principally the ones trying to stop the government from their bullshit, the ones gaining absolute power, and politicians from both sides here they join the side that can win, are the same ones causing those problems in the first place. Putting the principal authors of villainy in absolute power of a super power and an aggressive military is a betrayal of this global south anyone might claim to want to help and that’s the fucking truth.
And they will do those things exponentially more, and to their own citizens that have been trying to stop them. The military coup in Venezuela is just a start, where they seduced Venezuela’s military leaders to give up Maduro and his loyalists to the US and stand down and allow the grab operation, meaning they are now the de facto leaders of the US puppet regime ala cold war, right from the template.
Just wait for the resistance to stealing the oil, the army will try to crush it, to do the dirty work they will form paramilitary groups to do death squads in collective punishments of restive areas funded by black market cia drug and weapons markets. As sure as Spring following Winter.
It’s as ignorant as those that want all russians to be harmed because of their government, or blame a person for their country, when they have little to no control over it. I know you didn’t say that just answering that point which comes up, it’s doing a disservice to the world, and anyone wishing for that to happen has little idea how this dumpster fire will spread and burn the entire world, and it’s already out of control.
Ultimately, what the US Empire needs is revolution. The west isn’t doing what it’s doing out of a lack of intelligence, but instead a rational following of a fundamentally unsustainable economic system. Capital is what drives the Empire.
It just remains to be seen what type of revolution but you are right, there will be one, it’s just a question of if the left can overcome the democrats and give it to them, or if we will allow the far right to give it to them. And that answer is almost certainly the far right, which will call for another revolution at a minimum.
Problem is the technology is so advanced, previous despots couldn’t dream of this level of total information on their people, autonomous forces, and enough polarization to get weird fast. It’s really not a revolution here with the far right though, it’s increased Oligarchic Repression. Every representative government goes through the same stages, as remarked by Plato observing countless Greek City States, often on expedited revolutions through the formula, but Rome followed it over 500 years as well, the UK is just now sliding into the same oligarchic repression, as is france, etc.
But a tyrant/king/autocrat, becomes bad enough there is a revolution and they institutes a representative government, usually sort of an aristocracy doing most of the office holding but it all depends. Then through time that degenerates as the powerful become rich then more powerful and start abusing their fellow citizens, and it goes through several stages of what amounts to oligarchic repression but he lays out several -ocracies. Eventually the oligarchic repression becomes bad enough a strong man comes along, unites the population, and lays waste to the oligarchy, setting himself us as tyrant/king/autocrat, what they called democracy, which has since become a liberal buzz word in the late 19th century and changed meanings from what it was. And the cycle starts again as the tyrant becomes corrupt and capricious in time and is overthrown again.
By the time of the tyrant overthrowing the oligarchy is more important than saving the system of government. Worth every cost to get rid of the aristocracy causing the problems.
To be clear, the US president, and the far right menacing western europe and the west, are not that autocrat, they are an increasing stage of oligarchic repression. So while they give reform, we should not call that a revolution, it’s just a quicker descent into the abyss. Which will in time queue up a real leader, to fulfill the destiny of our republics, to kill them as they are terminal and put them out of their misery. Which will be a good thing by the time it gets there, it’s just with the tech it’s different this time in some ways. Very much the same in much of what Plato described however.
The important factor is that the driver of revolution is the revolutionary class, and in the US Empire that will be the working classes, along with resolving the question of settler-colonialism. Decolonization and socialism are both necessities, driven by imperialist decay.
Ah yes, socialism. Well known for profiting off the labor of people making lenses in a country halfway across the planet.
Are you saying the PRC isn’t socialist because it trades with other countries? Or are you equating trade with the sheer plunder committed by the west towards the global south?
Trade? Is that what this is? They own it. Read the fucking article.
You literally cannot accept valid criticism of China without whataboutism.
I get it, we suck. I agree. Your turn…
(Although, I wouldn’t want you to jeopardize that paycheck, so whatever you feel comfortable with)
It’s really sad how you guys literally can’t imagine holding an opinion without being paid for it
Oh no, I absolutely can. What I cannot do is trust anyone who is literally incapable of even mild criticism of a world superpower (who has inarguably done some not so great things).
I’m not sure if you’re familiar with this person or not, but it’s uncanny.
Oh okay, so you’re just saying shit. If you look at their profile, you’ll see legitimate criticism galore. What you will not see is breathless repetition of easily disproven atrocity propaganda of the type the US has been fooling rubes with for two hundred years. Liberals and “leftists” tend to mistake the two.
Fascist: “I was banned for a simple difference of opinion! These liberals can’t handle disagreement!” (The disagreement was over who is human and who should be killed)
Liberal: “I was flamed just for criticizing China! These communists can’t handle criticism!” (The criticism is just the same baseless reheated imperial tripe every communist has seen and debunked 4 million times)
The resemblance is uncanny. You always hide behind the veil of “I’m just criticizing bro” when your blatant ignorance gets corrected.
China owns a factory in Israel, sure. Is your argument that they are imperializing Israeli proletarians? Is it imperialist to own factories in other countries, regardless of the nature of the relations themselves? I can absolutely accept valid criticism of the PRC, you’ll notice I’m not really pushing back against those disappointed with how long China is taking to sever economic ties with Israel. However, critique doesn’t have merit purely for existing.
Not sure what you mean by “jeopardizing that paycheck,” if you’re insinuating I get paid to be a communist then I can only say that I wish that were the case. Instead, I pay dues out of my own actual paycheck from the job I work.
Anyone who is incapable of even the most mildest of criticisms about a subject cannot be trusted about the subject.
Cool, I don’t see how that applies here. I’m plenty critical of China for valid reasons, such as their presently poor LGBTQIA+ legislation (though it has been gradually improving) or their backing of Cambodia over Vietnam back during the time of Pol Pot. Your “criticisms,” more often than not, aren’t logically justified.
appreciated the thread below.
No problem! Feel free to ask any questions you might have, if I can help I will!
That’s cool, too bad they are apparently as morally bankrupt as the USA leadership otherwise they would advocate for the utter destruction of israel and the public execution of any Chinese citizen who had ever invested a single Yuan into genocide.
The PRC currently absolutely prioritizes Palestinian statehood, and has directly helped the resistance as well. They do not sell arms to Israel, or tools like drones that could be weaponized. I agree that investing into Israel is morally bankrupt, but it’s important to see that there’s a massive difference between the US Empire, actively funding and supplying genocide, and the PRC, which is non-interventionist and imperfect in their support of Palestine.
The PRC is not helping the US and Israel disarm the resistance. China has affirmed that Palestinians must control Palestine in their own state, and served as a vital mediator for the 2024 Beijing Declaration, where Fatah and Hamas were brought closer together and the resistance as a whole in Palestine came together to collaborate more closely, alongside China. In the 2024 Beijing Declaration, which China was a core mediator for, it was declared that the resistance must not be disarmed.
China has consistently only ever veto’d at the security council if it is willing to intervene millitarily in order to protect the veto’d outcome. The PRC has veto’d sanctions on the DPRK, and has enforced that veto by increasing trade with the DPRK. The US Empire has never been stopped by a veto, such as when it was determined to stop shipping arms to Haiti, which the US subverted. China vetoing the UNSC declaration on Palestine would mean mobilizing its army to directly prevent the US’s plans for the region.
If we look at how resistance orgs responded, they aren’t blaming China. Instead, they have similar analysis to China, that is that the plan itself is unworkable and that they cannot implement it in the first place. China also adhered its best to both the PLO, who endorsed TRUST, and Hamas, the PFLP, etc that oppose TRUST.
Personally, I would rather China take a more millitant anti-imperialist stance than their current passive stance. There’s good reason to believe this will be the case in the future, as younger generations in China are more millitant and more overwhelmingly pro-Palestine. However, I don’t confuse imperfect allies for enemies, which is the western-leftist mistake you’ve fallen for. You did the same with Hexbear, calling them “transzionist” and claiming they ban critique of contrapoints because she’s trans. The reality is that Hexbear is anti-zionist and pro-trans, and regularly clowns on contrapoints for her awful liberalism.
China is contributing to a multi-polar world, which undermines Israel and supports Palestine. China’s position in the global stage facilitates south-south trade, which bypasses unequal exchange, where the global north maintains monopolies on high tech industries so as to consistently charge monopoly prices in exchange with the global south. China charges non-monopoly prices, and this is why exchange with China, alongside the rise of the Belt and Road Initiative, has resulted in dramatic development in African and Latin American countries. This is ultimately the single greatest contributor to the downfall of imperialism globally, and is why right now there is such a large cold war with China.
Your confusion of imperfect allies with enemies is why the western left has continued to fail to meaningfully challenge the status quo. Jones Manoel was correct in Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, But Not Real Revolution. Western leftists do the work of the US Empire by making the same mistakes you’ve been making with respect to China, thereby sabotaging allies and making the efforts of the ones actually arming, facilitating, and committing the genocide easier.
TL;DR join an org. Having a practical outlet to test theory to practice, and directly organize against arming and supporting Israel, is a much better use of your time. It will also help you form a more correct understanding of anti-imperialist struggle.
A lot of what you say is reasonable discourse that can be seen as defending a political ideology that you fell strongly contributes to a better world. There’s nothing wrong with that and I commend you.
But then you say this
and you collapse into the “I’m about to start smashing skulls in the name of my ideology, and I’ll do so until I’ve inadvertently built an empire”.
So you and your ideological bedmates have decided that you have the moral clarity to decide who gets attacked in the name of anti-imperialism. The world has certainly never heard that angle before, I’m sure you’ll be the first.
When you can’t actually counter the arguments someone has actually made, instead you can just wildly misrepresent them!
As I said already in another response to you, we’re talking past each other. You’re not trying to understand what I said and I don’t have the desire to discuss it with you. I would assume you feel the same about me. We’re not benefiting each other in any way, at this point you’re not going to convince me and I’m not going to convince you, there’s no point to continue, so best to just go about our day.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
-Jean-Paul Sartre
Cool quote. I like Sartre. I’ve used the “don’t believe in words” many times. And I’m not an anti-semite, just so you know. I’ve many Jewish people in my life.
But I’m not trying to redefine anything. I just don’t want to talk to you or anyone about it anymore.
So you’re loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is passed?
“Imperialist violence and antiimperialist violence are actually the same”
Okay, so just sit there and suffer endlessly i guess. Nobody should fight back against Israel or ICE, because that would make them the same. Damn, it’s been a while since I’ve seen this view unironically.
Not what I said at all. I’m 100% for fighting back against ICE, and although I don’t believe going to war in the middle east is something Canada should do, I do believe in stopping all trade with Israel and treating them like a genocidal, criminal regime. That doesn’t mean we should go to war with them or hope to increase our foreign militarism in general, which is what the OP was saying and what I responded to. Moreover he claimed that somehow a Marxist state would be immune to abusing that power, and yes, that is naive.
If you don’t understand at this point, best to just move on with our lives. I don’t have any more energy or desire to explain it.
Oh, so you “have decided that you have the moral clarity to decide who gets attacked in the name of anti-imperialism.” then?
Presumably you also believe we shouldn’t have gone to war with Nazi Germany.
Are you planning to follow me around this whole thread humping my leg trying to get attention? I get it, you hate liberals. Move on bro.
There are 3 major problems with your line of logic.
For starters, not all intervention means millitary violence. There can be economic intervention, such as sanctions, trade embargoes, or even supplying resistance groups. In fact, the PRC already does some of this, in supporting the Palestinian resistance. My emotional desire for more support in this regard doesn’t rest on the PLA invading Israel.
With respect to argument 2, international violence is not inherently imperialist. Imperialism is a relationship by which one country economically plunders the resources and surplus value created by other countries. This can be maintained with violence, installing compradors, etc. The PRC isn’t imperialist, and aiding Palestine against Israel would not resort in the creation of new colonies for China.
With respect to argument 3, you verge into idealism. The idea that Marxism-Leninism isn’t a genuinely anti-imperialist framework needs to be contested based on its merits as an ideology, not based on the idea that flawed ideologies exist. You treat anti-imperialism as something inherently unknowable, ie within the realm of the supernatural, intentionally or not. The truth is that nothing in the universe is truly unknowable, no matter how difficult it is to learn, and treating certain ideas as beyond knowledge just pushes them into the realm of the supernatural.
All of your arguments are in service of saying the PLA would be evil to provide more direct support to the resistance and take a stronger anti-Zionist stance than they already are, via phrasemongering on your part and linguistic gymnastics.
To begin with, you should use the word ‘claim’ rather than ‘assume’.
No I don’t. OP did when they hoped for increased militarism.
No I don’t. Foreign military adventures are not always imperialism.
You’re starting to get to what I was claiming, which is that unchecked power backed by ideology convinced of its moral, ethical or political superiority will eventually aim to spread itself, likely through violence, military or otherwise. Marxism is no different, and the implementation of it in China is not showing any moral superiority beyond what I’ve seen in history from any other soon to be superpower, colonial or otherwise. We’ll soon see how that plays out in Taiwan I’m sure, which will be the next example of China’s ‘beneficence’.
I admit I didn’t read anything past your three points because your first two interpretations of my claims didn’t impress me (so I’m not really interested in how you rebut the claims you made up) and moreover this entire exchange with everyone has been insulting and lacking in any good faith whatsoever so I’m disinclined to attempt further discussion with anyone.
Least bad faith shitlib
I’m OP, and no I didn’t make that claim. I used “millitant” to refer to taking an active role, rather than a passive one. That’s why I said you assumed all intervention is violent based on my use of the word millitant.
But you did. You said millitant intervention leads to imperialism.
This is idealism, though, and is based more on the supernatural than the material. By claiming that no ideology can actually be genuinely anti-imperialist, you treat anti-imperialism as something unknowable, beyond the material, and therefore the realm of the supernatural. Materialism teaches us that there is nothing truly unknowable, while your reasoning relies on some grand “human spirit” to explain your insistence that ideology inevitably turns to imperialism.
And this is why your argument is getting correctly deconstructed by everyone, you aren’t actually listening and have made up your mind that you’re correct.
If you say so.
I like how you’ve left a dozen comments asserting that you have nothing left to say and the conversation is over, and then you just keep going while refusing to actually engage in the conversation.
Great talk.
Yes fighting on the side of the exploited against their exploiter is morally just in all instances. It’s easy for you to talk shit from your cushy position in the imperial core. I hope you reflect in the future on the immense privilege you have thanks to the mass immiseration of the global south and do better.
So you’re not different from your opposition. For sure you’ve got the right answer, and your might will prove it.
It’s not about me, it’s about the principle you’re espousing. Also you don’t know anything about me, and presuming you do does nothing for your position.
Edit - Are you also asserting China is not or will never be imperialist? How naive can you possibly be?
“Fighting against the Nazis makes you no different from the Nazis!!!”
Everyone in this comment section is talking past each other. This isn’t what I said or implied, it’s what others, like you, implied about what I said.
Incredible for the “fighting back against fascism is evil” guy to be calling anyone else naive
You clearly misunderstood what I said.
My family fought and one of them died fighting fascists, I despise them and would gladly rejoin the military to do so, even though I’m almost at the age cap.
How’s your history in this regard?
Your assertions here are that using violence against fascists is bad purely because we cannot know whether fascism is correct or anti-fascism is. As for China being imperialist or not, your argument is that by opposing fascism they will inevitably become imperialist.
These are logical absurdities based in idealism.
Nope
It is, though.
You aren’t arguing about the answer. When we say “violence against fascists and imperialists is justified,” you attack the fact that this is ideologically driven.
This argument, again, is saying principles are incapable of being good.
Yes. What part of fighting on the side of the exploited against their exploiters is always just did you not get?
Might doesn’t prove anything. Violence is unfortunately the only language that colonialist and imperialists understand as has already been proven by history.
In your mind was it wrong to use violence on the Nazis? You seem awfully pro status quo which is built on the rape, murder pillaging and mass exploitation of Billions for the comfort of a few millions and the mass excesses of a few thousand.
There’s nothing wrong with fighting to protect people it’s the part where you decide you and your friends get to decide who is right and who is wrong.
As I said before, you don’t know anything about me, so don’t presume that you do so that you can justify your righteous indication and buttress poorly formed beliefs. My family has a long history of military involvement, my grandfather fought from Normandy to Germany and suffered greatly for it. Two of his brothers fought and one didn’t come back. My maternal grandmother was Osterbeiter and met my maternal grandfather in a German work camp. All of my family hated Nazis with a passion their entire lives, and half of them also hated Soviets. Don’t talk to me like I don’t understand fighting for what you believe, and don’t tell me I don’t understand suffering.
Military excursions in the name of ideology, particularly when they are done by a superpower, very quickly become imperialism. Thinking China is immune to that is immensely naive.
More vibes based analysis from one so wise. Fighting the Nazis was good but fighting the order set up by the imperial power the Nazis modelled themselves after is bad. You are a privileged liberal who only cares about what directly affects you and don’t care about the rest of us. The global south is being exploited on a scale that would give Hitler wet dreams and your response to people supporting them fighting back is “you’re just as bad as the exploiters if you fight back”. It’s infantile and plainly ridiculous. Grow up. Do some reading, go visit the global south and talk to people and witness the exploitation you are inherently ok with as you condemn resistance.
Long history of imperial conquest but also fought the Nazis so all the rest of it is ok.
You clearly don’t know what this word means.
We don’t decide anything. It has already been decided when they supported genocide imperialism and colonialism. No one forced them to.
Connect this. How is a country materially supporting anti-fascism and anti-imperialism a road to imperialism? Tie it directly to Marxism-Leninism in particular. Focusing on vague generalities while ignoring specifics that are inconvenient to your argument is poor logic.
Why? Connect the argument, address the claims directly.
Wait… wait, are you implying that the working class controls the state in PRC?
Not implying, stating. In China, they have direct elections for local representatives, which elect further “rungs,” laddering to the top. The top then has mass polling and opinion gathering. This combination of top-down and bottom-up democracy ensures effective results. For more on this, see Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. The government itself has no capitalists in the top positions either:
This system has achieved fantastic metrics, such as over 90% of the citizenry supporting the government. This also shows why perceptions around democracy are so much higher in China than the west:
So yes, the working classes do control the state in China.
We have democratic elections in the U.S. too. Doesn’t make us any less of an oligarchy.
Keep peddling that bullshit though. It’s good for a laugh.
Oh, really? When did we start doing that?
We briefly experimented with the idea during Reconstruction and then quickly got rid of it.
I’ve been thinking about how the Union appeased the slavers by paying them reparations, 3/5 compromise, 13th Amendment, not burning the South to the ground and salting the earth behind them. This wasn’t to regain unity but to continue brutal exploitation of whomever they could while having a tissue-thin veil of plausible deniability.
Whenever they started People’s Choice Awards
The US isn’t democratic, the state is run by capitalists and the two major parties are subservient to capital. You can even see the effects of this with how low approval rates are for the government, and much lower perceptions of democracy. The reason the working classes in China can maintain such strong control over the state is because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working class party overthrew the nationalists back in 1949. What part of what I said is “peddling bullshit?”
Oh shit I didn’t realize this was Cowbee!
Cool?
I mean, is it cool to be internet famous for tirelessly espousing obvious bullshit?
You are like a China’s Charlie Kirk.
You have a purpose in life though, I envy that.
If it’s obvious you should be able to refute it. But all I see is you plugging your ears and being a snide child. Go on, address the overwhelming satisfaction of the Chinese public with their government. I would be any amount of money you come up with some variation of “those lying Chinese are just lying”.
I don’t think I could be considered “internet famous,” especially considering Lemmy is itself extremely niche. I’m also not comparable to a dead fascist. I am a communist, sure, but there’s more to my life than organizing in real life and doing what I do on Lemmy.
Is it a habit of yours to ask a question, then jump to insults when you get an answer you don’t know how to respond to?