My thoughts is that it’s a simple situation really. If they’re harassing or assaulting people, the women will call the cops or something, simple situation and get the guy arrested. If he’s not doing anything, it’s nothing harmful. Apparently that’s not a solid enough answer. What should I have said?
Reminder that this is not a thing that has ever actually happened.
Is there no one in the replies here who thinks women have a legitimate discomfort, or unsafe feeling, having men around in a toilet space, even if the men aren’t actively being harmful?
No women here who had difficult upbringings with men? No men whose daughter or sister or female friend feels uncomfortable letting certain barriers down around strange men?
Of course there is an important discussion about how bathroom culture changes as society’s acceptance of trans people changes.
But, OP, I think what you would do best beyond what you said, is to acknowledge that some women have a legitimate concern, even if there’s not an easy answer. Once you have that point of agreement - once the other person can see you care about the concern they’re coming from - you have a foundation for discussing a real problem and/or solution.
Otherwise you’re just buttimg heads to win, and asking an internet echo chamber to adjudicate.
So quick question: You are completely fine with a trans woman using the women’s rest room right?
Whatever you answer to a question like that is going to be attacked. The best way is not to answer, but reply with a different question, for instance “what are you afraid of?”
and what is stopping a cis male from doing the same?
Irrelevant but: I, um, did this once. We were at a fancy art gallery. I somehow followed what I thought was a mixed group into what I thought was a general bathroom. I remember thinking what a novel concept to mix bathrooms like this!
It was only afterwards that I realised that, no, this was not a mixed bathroom. No one said anything, but I cringe at myself and at how uncomfortable I must have made people feel.
That is the scenario…
What’s to stop him just walking in anyway?
Don’t live in the US, but in Sweden almost all WCs are gender neutral.
But the scenario is a cis gender male, walking in to a bathroom where he doesn’t belong. And you ask what is stopping him, well in the world where someone is asking you what gender you are, to allow you to go the bathroom; I guess that will be stopping you.
It’s a made up scenario
Culture and common understanding. The sense of shame he’d get from everyone around saying, why are you in the wrong toilet? And the potential for escalation if he doesn’t turn back and leave.
Changing culture means new adaptation to what’s comfortable, what feels safe, and how you can interact with a stranger without getting the police involved. We have to adapt: but that change is a legitimate difficulty/concern for women who don’t feel safe doing their ‘toilet’ with men around.
I see three broad categories of sexual misconduct a man could get up to in a women’s restroom:
-
Sexual assault and/or rape. Since his sex will become very apparent during the act there’s no real disguise needed; avoiding getting caught here is making sure you’re not identifiable to security cameras covering the entrance. Walk in, stand just inside the door.
-
In-person voyeurism. Want to get an eyeful in person, see some of that under-stall ankle. I see no functional difference in this case between posing as a trans-woman and posing as a woman. Like what’s even the difference in implementation? You can be slightly lazier with your disguise?
-
Installing cameras. Uploading to a shady website or something. Trans-woman is the wrong disguise for this job; you want to pose as a janitor or maintenance worker. Wear a grey jumpsuit with a name sewn to the chest and no one will bat an eye at you taking several trips to carry tools and ladders and shit in there. Drill holes in the wall, run some wire, tamper with the plumbing fixtures. Wear a high vis vest, carry a clipboard, wear a hard hat and walk with purpose and you can bring power tools into places much more secure than a women’s restroom.
I don’t see how trans people existing worsens any risk here, is my point. But it’s not about that, is it?
-
If a person presenting as a man enters the womens bathroom and goes to the bathroom and washes their hands and leaves… I would say nothing. Why the fuck do you care?
Hell, I have seen grown men enter the women’s room with their daughters, maybe around 6-7 years old. Old enough that they want to use the big girl toilet, young enough that they need supervision.
You know what happened? Nothing. Nothing happened, because 99% of people don’t actually care if you’re not being a creep.
99% of people don’t actually care if you’re not being a creep.
I don’t think that’s true. I think there’s a lot of women who don’t feel comfortable/safe in a vulnerable space with men around. And even though one mightn’t actually undress outside the individual toilet cubicles, it’s still - to many - that kind of space.
I think it’s important to respect women’s (and men’s) desire for privacy - even when not all women feel the same need for privacy - through this cultural change of who uses what bathroom.
And that goes doubly when you expand beyond a particular subset of America to different cultures and people with different experiences.
I have traveled to very conservative countries and have never found the sort of puritanical hand wringing that comes from a certain subset of Americans.
I say this as an American expat who has lived everywhere from Hawaii to the bible belt, to New York.
Can you imagine the pain and anxiety you would cause a biological woman who does not look feminine enough for your line of reasoning here?
You see her in the restroom and act like she doesn’t belong there - maybe you say something, maybe you keep your “discomfort in your vulnerable place” to yourself, but your stupid ideas about what a woman is and how one should look in order to be accepted into a bathroom are hurtful.
I was in an art class last month with a lovely young woman who has pcos. She is a Sikh woman, and therefore does not remove her facial hair.
She had a beard that would put a young man to shame, and now it occurs to me that had she been unfortunate enough to be born in America, she would have had to choose between honouring the basic tenets of her religion, or conforming so she is not shunned - or worse, assaulted for using the womens room.
https://www.learnreligions.com/some-sikh-women-have-facial-hair-2993341
Can you really expect privacy in the communal area of a bathroom? There’s other people walking around you.
i’ve understood that coed bathrooms have existed in various places in the country long before republicans decided they were going to create a campaign against transgender people using restrooms. Grow up. Everyone poops!
I know that lying is bad. And that’s a crucial point I think.
This is not even a good question to argue with, if anyone in the restroom is being a creep it’s not ok and that’s that.
“in your biased example the fact that the person is trans isn’t relevant to anything…what’s your point?”
What should I have said?
"Wow, sadly I think it means that person has some serious mental issues, and we should get them some help.
Are you feeling okay? Do you want me to call someone for you?"
Probably should have changed the subject or said goodbye. Arguing with conservatives is exhausting and usually in bad faith. It’s about winning, not exploring a topic together.
Do you realize that this belief actually prevents you from discussing in good faith?
If you dehumanize the other, then you can’t be open to discussion with them.
I don’t negotiate with Nazis
I don’t get why we have different bathrooms at this point. Its more efficient to just have them all be family bathrooms with floor to ceiling stalls.
Was at a brewery last night where the “bathroom” was a row of sinks, and then a row of doors labeled “sit” or “stand”. The commode cubicles were full length walls and doors, totally private, and this just makes so much more sense to me
Was at a church yard sale yesterday and they had the same setup. Pretty sure it was not a progressive church.
Amen! I went to a restaurant that had this layout. Each stall was like it’s own little room with a full sized door and a shared sink area. It’s more efficient use of space and you get a better stall. The only thing that I think would make it better would be a small side area with a couple urinals.
You should have said “How is that not a solid enough answer?”
What public bathroom has dedicated security gaurds? Theres nothing stopping a man from just walking in without having to make stuff up. If someone is acting inappropriate in a public restroom then why does it matter whats in their pants? Gay/lesbian perverts exist too!
As my brother can attest to, there are women take anyone who passes as a man as a threat in the women’s restroom and will go get people to do something. Poor dude was just trying to get tampons.
Seriously that’s always been my question for these people. “Oh no, only women are allowed to enter and I’m not a woman! Oh well, guess I’ll go rape someone somewhere else!” Dude was already planning on committing a crime, guys. Come on.
