Could you please define exactly what you mean by “left-wing”?
I’m a Marxist-Leninist, so yes. I think you’ll find most people on Lemmy in general fall into the major categories of “Liberal,” as in the US Democrat style, Anarchists, and Marxists. Different instances lean in different directions on this, with overall few outright conservatives.
Do you advocate seizing the means of production and are a worker? If not, then you are not a leftist.
You can be “left wing” without being a “leftist”. I wouldn’t classify them as the same, personally. Left wing really includes anyone left of center
Sounds like a liberal to me. Centrists always think they are leftists because of the guilt of supporting capitalism. You support social programs. You do not support any form of removing capitalism. You are not a leftist, you are a centrist.
The actual left wing, the something socialists something are partly on hexbear.org and lemmygrad.ml. And they are called tankies and blocked on lemmy.world. So how left wing can most people here be? The thing is that “left” has become synonymous with (neo)liberal values. Like there doesn’t have to be a free, independent press or social media and them being owned by capitalists is just fine.
Hexbear isn’t socialist. It’s a group of assholes defending China and Russia, denying the Uyghur genocide and the aggression of Ukraine
The problem is that over the last decade any nuanced opinions on those topics has become less and less “politically correct”. And that is the correct term, anyone who isn’t politically correct and in line with the liberal mainstream opinion (= imperialist propaganda by the US state department and think tanks) must by definition by a paid shills of Putin, China or Trump. There are those people of course, but the dynamic has become more and more polarized and steeped in conspiratorial thinking. And that is by “design”. It’s profitable and it serves the US imperial agenda and it’s easier to avoids the frustration of talking to trolls and fascists - just paint everyone of a different opinion with the same brush.
I mean you can’t even talk about talking about it, like not seeing those people as anything but “assholes”. The range of allowable opinions has drastically narrowed. It’s not even liberal in the modern sense of the word. People are too scared to be liberal any more.
…saying china is a democracy, or good, the kind of thing I hear these types saying is just as propagandized a take. That’s the issue…
This comes a bit down to utilitarianism vs ethics based on principles. But that’s a lie, it’s really about who has power.
I’m just watching a video by Majority Report where he talks about the question “Why is democracy is good” which the Democrats sort of fucked up in the election. And he makes a pretty painful point that it’s a “show me, don’t tell me” question. If you live in a democracy and constantly exploited, overworked, fucked over, in terror of economic hardship or terror attacks, harassed by police, then what is the point? What is the benefit? I’m not making the point that democracy is bad, but that a shell of a democracy, a fake, is leading especially the “dirtbag left” to adopt a pretty hostile posture.
So what is the actual quality of life in China vs the USA? What are the actual material benefits looking at living in an apartment, working, raising children and living a peaceful life?
How do YOU know that life in China isn’t actually better and people more happy than in the USA? I don’t believe that is true but it’s a valid question. Of course China has massive problems and corruption and abuses. But there are a billion people there that were on a medieval level after WWII. The CCP has massively invested in e.g. education and healthcare and infrastructure.
Or compare quality of life in China vs democratic India. Similar can be said about Iran, 55% of University graduates were women. But it’s painted as black and white.
Sure you have freedom of speech with the means of communication owned and controlled by the oligarchs. And you can say whatever you want on reddit and get downvoted to hell - which goes to my previous point, that the propaganda is so internalized and polarized now that you don’t need threats of state violence to keep the population in check.
So those opinions are not just for fun. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer is an aphorism that is leading the west inevitably towards fascism. So all the “posturing” about how superior our principles and freedums are is just… well it’s a delusion. It’s happening right now. They are stealing your future right now and there is nothing you can do because they control the media.
But still the socialists are completely rejected and banned from the largest lemmy instances.
This comes a bit down to utilitarianism vs ethics based on principles
No, it doesn’t. Either one, democracy is still better… Science does best with freedom from suppression.
I’m not making the point that democracy is bad
You are, in fact, making that point
which goes to my previous point, that the propaganda is so internalized and polarized now that you don’t need threats of state violence to keep the population in check
Social suppression is a world apart from state suppression, and downvotes on reddit are not an example of keeping people in check. that’s a terminally online viewpoint.
Of course China has massive problems and corruption and abuses
They are literally a dictatorship. That’s an incredible understatement.
How do YOU know that life in China isn’t actually better and people more happy than in the USA?
They are actively commiting genocide.
Sure you have freedom of speech with the means of communication owned and controlled by the oligarchs
There’s plenty of options for uncontrolled communication. Corp suppression is still wholly different from gov suppression;they can’t toss you in jail.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer is an aphorism that is leading the west inevitably towards fascism.
That’s your opinion, and does not reflect reality.
Your response to a trend toward fascism(which is happening, but not inevitable), is to say we should embrace it like china does?
They are stealing your future right now and there is nothing you can do because they control the media.
Are you intentionally being obtuse about the fact that china has massive censorship. I’m not here to say the usa is good. You’re ignoring European reality, favoring the usa in your arguments because it’s closer to supporting them.
So all the “posturing” about how superior our principles and freedums are is just… well it’s a delusion
We objectively speaking have more freedom of speech than china does at the present moment.
But still the socialists are completely rejected and banned from the largest lemmy instances.
Tankies. Not socialists. Socialists are often speaking and getting upvoted.
No, it doesn’t. Either one, democracy is still better… Science does best with freedom from suppression.
U.S. science no longer leads the world. Here’s how top advisers say the nation should respond
Last time I took the political compass test, I was center-right, firmly in the libertarian quadrant, exactly in the sub-section labeled “libertarian”.
That means my political stances align 100% against the Republican party and authoritarianism in general.
I simultaneously miss and don’t miss reading posts by Trump Supporters on Reddit.
It’s nice to read comments from the other side, even if those comments are batshit insane.
“Come to Lemmy, we have batshit insanity from more than just the two sides” 🤪
Although on Lemmy.world, you won’t see two of the Big Three instances that spread the majority of authoritarian propaganda present on Lemmy, because lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net have been defederated.
The conservatives likewise were defederated from, and apparently fell apart internally, presumably moving over to Truth Social.
If you or anyone else truly wants to read every POV though, then you can check out Lemm.ee that aims to defederate from as few instances as possible.
Cheers!
I do get morbidly curious about politics and will probably check it out.
Even so I’ll add a warning that Hexbear.net is a troll instance. They don’t so much truly believe in anything so much as spoil for a fight, which is fine except consent does not matter to them and they refuse to restrain themselves outside of their instance that was created for that purpose. Also they have been caught actually lying to instance admins. Even so they can be fun to talk with, so long as you aren’t taken by surprise e.g. mistaking it for people being serious:-).
Yes.
I’d call myself a liberal but not left wing
Yes
Need to count the number of “fascists” per posts to get an accurate determination
I’m Canadian. I support social programs and humanist programs. I support regulation of business so they don’t abuse their positions of power over people and to curb their habit of doing bad things in the name of more profit. I’m for taxing those with hordes of cash and giving the struggling worker a break. I support people to have the freedom to be who they want to be (gay, straight, trans, etc) as long as they aren’t hurting other people (IE pedos don’t get to harm children because they “were born that way” or god said it was cool). I support protecting the land, water and animals. I think Trump is a cunt.
I’m probably pretty left-wing.
Why even lump pedos in the same sentence with the gays
This is an age-old hurtful stereotype. I’m hoping you don’t believe there’s any connection, because I have heard that before from bigots in my life and it just makes me see red. Same as the whole “homophobes are just closeted gays let’s point that out as if it’s a sickness”.
I’m just tryin to exist, not be considered “harmful” to anyone
Why even lump pedos in the same sentence with the gays
That’s the new MAGA argument. I was getting in front of it.
They’re basically arguing if gay and trans people are born that way, and that’s fine, then pedos are born that way so why isn’t that fine?
It’s a stupid argument because gay and trans people by default exist without victims.
In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay, bi, trans, asexual, etc.
It’s not a new argument. This goes back decades, with actual laws being passed linking homosexuality to pedophilia and making it a crime and/or classified as a mental disorder to be gay.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13218719.2023.2280519
It’s just a sore subject is all.
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I think it’s generally useful to abandon the notions of the Political Compass. Rather than relying on online tests, ask yourself if you think public ownership should be the principle aspect of the economy, or private ownership, and that will tell you if you’re more left-wing or right-wing.
Im unaware of any political science program that would advocate for the Nolan Square at this point.
Yep, it’s all vibes-based and merely attempts to approximate ideologies while obscuring their real mechanisms. It adds confusion more than it clarifies.
yes
This is the fediverse it’s full of new people, adventurers, change makers. The majority of people who would be interested in this platform will have a more progressive bent. So the majority of people here will be more accepting of liberal policies.
Quibble: Many here are explicitly leftist, in the a leftist-not-liberal sense, and will even use “liberal” derogatorily. So, progressive, yes, but liberal, not necessarily.
Good point, many think left = liberal = US democrats who are centrists at best from the international perspective. So no, most people on here probably aren’t actual leftists, but I’m guessing when they say they ‘lean left’ they mean US-liberal-not-conservative, not socialist or whatever.
to make matters more fun, many ‘explicitly leftist’ lemmings are tankies (blind supporters of russia, china, north korea, etc), who are explicitly not leftist but authoritarians masquerading in the skinsuit of the people’s revolution.
From my perspective I think that that is very silly. I don’t care for purity tests, but what would I know? I’m just a dirty libertarian.
Liberal policies are an actual thing, a thing that leftists frequently disagree with.
Libertarians are often placed on the right part of the left-right divide. The fact you’ve chosen the label libertarian instead of conservative is animated by the exact same “purity test” that you find so silly.
I would like to throw out there that the ACLU is a libertarian organization that would likely line up with the majority of the beliefs of Lemmy users. With that said I understand most people aren’t using libertarian in its ‘correct’ meaning as the ACLU does.
Yea I tend to think than when someone identifies as a Libertarian they almost certainly don’t mean a civil libertarian, which is how the aclu actually identifies themselves.
We have grown from a roomful of civil libertarians to more than 4 million members, activists, and supporters across the country. The ACLU is now a nationwide organization with a 50-state network of staffed affiliate offices filing cases in both state and federal courts. We appear before the Supreme Court more than any other organization except the Department of Justice.
This is literally the only time the word libertarian appears in their own history https://www.aclu.org/about/aclu-history
I only know because I interned there and it’s something they talked about. Maybe it was always preceded with ‘civil’ I just don’t remember that as well. The big issue amongst the workers when I was there was that in principle they supported Citizens United, and most of the employees did not support it in practice.
Just adding my experience to the topic, not sure why I got down voted for it. I’m not trying to push anyone to be libertarian just pointing out other ways the definition can be used.
You were downvoted because you dared to question the group think. Bad terrible actions irredeemable actions. How could you dare to bring your face here again?. Shame unending unyielding shame. Feel it understand it. You deserve it. /S
Authoritarians are often exceedingly fragile.
Neat, I appreciate your insight. Upvote from me and today I learned.
You realize that libertarianism is not a left right spectrum of the political orientation, correct?
For example Stalin was an authoritarian based in leftist ideology. Hitler is an authoritarian based in right-wing ideology.
Notice that while their economic goals are at complete odds with one another, they are both authoritarians.
You realize that libertarianism is not a left right spectrum of the political orientation, correct?
For example Stalin was an authoritarian based in leftist ideology. Hitler was an authoritarian based in right-wing ideology.
Notice that while their economic goals are at complete odds with one another, they are both authoritarians.
I’m libertarian because I believe in freedom of choice. I’m not a conservative because the only things I care about conserving are the oceans and the forests.
I hope that in the future we can stop using the worst monsters and strawmen from our peers chosen political affiliation to color our view of those peers.
Notice that while their economic goals are at complete odds with one another, they are both authoritarians.
You’re thinking of the political compass there, which has two axes, one being the economic one (left/right) and the other being the Authoritarian (top) vs Libertarian (bottom) axis.
But the left/right most people use is a one-dimensional system which puts everything on that one axis. It’s based on how the French parliament used to be set up between the radical left and the aristocratic right.
The point being, the two left/right axes aren’t equivalent. I personally also think in the political compass, that’s the system we learnt in school, so I’m unclear on what falls where on the basic left/right axis. But Wikipedia has this to say:
While communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, conservatism and reactionism are generally regarded as being on the right.[1] Liberalism can mean different things in different contexts, being sometimes on the left (social liberalism) and other times on the right (conservative liberalism or classical liberalism). Those with an intermediate outlook are sometimes classified as centrists.
You can’t be both a libertarian and pretend to care about parks and forests. Pick one.
That’s not true. I’m pretty sure most people don’t 100% agree with The strictest definition of their chosen label.
I’m not entirely sure about what are the reasoning behind your comment, but i see it as : llibertarian implies no state + parks and forest require state = incompatibility. I’d disagree on the parks and forest require state, i thinl they only need organization, meaning one or more NGO could handle it. Accepting this, not that much incompatibility between libertarian and forest remains (accepting libertarian as left wing meaning that does not imply private property)
It wouldn’t kill you to read
But based on your username, that may not be in your skill set
You’re about one “and I think healthcare is a human right” from being a progressive/dem soc.
I like the Democratic socialists. I don’t like it when they seize power that will be upsurped by the next administration in powerand used to oppress people.
you forgot to switch alts to argue with yourself
You seem very confused I edited a comment and it posted to itself. It’s the same fucking comment should I have deleted the tree and collapsed the thread?
It isn’t a purity test, it’s a necessary accommodation of the fact that people in the US (and I say this as an American) think that the left ends at progressive liberalism, while everyone else in the world sees progressive liberalism as center-left at best because they acknowledge that ‘the left’ extends quite far past the bounds of Liberalism (the philosophy, not the political leaning), because Liberalism is about individualism and property rights but most people to the left of that are collectivist in some way shape or form.
Libertarian as the USA mean or the rest of the world mean?
As in the traditional meaning of the word
Thanks. I look forward to learning about libertarianism with and from you. Not saying I’ll agree, but that I look forward to learning more.
Personally myself, I’m a bit of a geoist and a bit of a minarchist. I would advise that if you are interested you should start reading, John Lock and David Henry Thoreaus essays on governent and from there branch out.
it’s full of new people,
Don’t be ridiculous. I’m not a new people. I’ve been a people for almost my whole life. I bet most of us have.
Not me, I’ve only been a person for the past couple years. Prior to that I was a caffeine-powered AI.
Just say yes
Most people everywhere are slightly left of centre*. Most leaders everywhere are slightly right of centre*.
*Not in the American sense. Y’all crazy.
