I get that anything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That’s besides the point. My point is, beyond speculation, what do crypto coins represent?
I also understand that the value of the US dollar is being questioned almost as much without the backing of gold.
But what I really want to know is what is at the foundation level of Bitcoin that people are buying into?
I have a basic understanding of the blockchain, etc. I sold 1BTC in 2017 for $1200 when I thought that was as high as it would go. At this point, at over $100kUSD and rising steadily, what is the $ limit and what is that limit based upon? I thought it was based on the value of mining to check transactions but this seems… not worth $100k to me.
I’ve been thinking, the only tangible value I personally see in Bitcoin, because it’s not really being used as legitimate currency, is for criminals. By now, there must be trillions of dollars in BTC acquired by criminals holding corporations hostage. When you’ve got people like Trump involved (either explicitly or by way of manipulation) with an executive order to establish a crypto czar, this suggests to me that he’s creating pathways for bad actors to more effectively gain more wealth. These are the people who are most excited in Bitcoin, beyond speculation.
I mean, there’s little to nothing on the up and up with crypto, right? It’s a scam. Right?
Please, factual answers only. I’m looking for someone to dispel my speculation with genuine economics of the matter.
Crypto is as valuable as you want it to be because it is not real. Not being real is a big problem for a currency.
Cryptocurrencies don’t rely on a central entity and is the Lemmy equivalent to Reddit compared to the fiat currency. I like it and I like the technology but
- Good luck at having a proper stable economy using only crypto. Cryptobros hate central banks but their policies ensure that a loaf of bread doesn’t cost 3 times as much the next day. I’d rather have a central trusted authority than not having one
- Bitcoin by itself sucks. It was the first crypto so it’s the most common but it’s slow, heavy and costly to operate and to transact on
TL;DR: It’s worth whatever a greater fool is willing to pay for it.
Bitcoin is a cult, therefore it’s invaluable to the cult members. In reality they’re all multi-level marketing pyramid schemes which is what the stock market has degenerated into as well. The former just has more overtly obnoxious shady unethical proponents. It’s easier to succumb to greed, selfishness, and seclude oneself from the rest of society by simply buying something that confirms one’s fallacy riddled beliefs than it is to question oneself and actively improving society with all of Earths inhabitants, ecosystems, and posterity in mind. Technologically humankind has made great strides, but mentally the majority still thinks like cavemen.
Crypto Cult Science
“Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely. Disregarding all of bitcoin’s shortcomings, a financial instrument that brings out the worst in people—greed—won’t change the world for the better.” —https://www.arscyni.cc/file/crypto_cult_science.html
The US dollar actually is tied to something of value: it’s the format the us government will take their taxes in or else they will increasingly use their powers as a monopoly on fhe legitimate use of force until you give them what you owe
Crypto is only worth what others will pay for it. Which is why I don’t own it
There is a limited amount of Bitcoin, and some of it is lost in forgotten wallets, so the total volume is constantly falling. This may partially increase the price.
But in reality, as in any speculative market, the price of bitcoin depends mainly on faith in it and speculation about world events (some kind of cataclysms, regular statements of this or that person about cryptocurrency, etc.)
The main real value can only be found in countries that are disconnected from SWIFT. However, almost no one appreciates this because there are only 5 officially disconnected countries. However, if this list continues to grow, cryptocurrencies (including Bitcoin) will become more prevalent in international transactions.
not even fiat (heh) is worth anything if we don’t accept it as store of value, let alone an electronic register on a digital ledger.
The real answer is: It depends how you define value.
Can you make money with Bitcoin? Yes. Are you likely to make money? No Is the technology useful applicable? Yes Is it being used and applied ethically and for the good of people? No. Is it a ‘store of value’? No, it’s more like an extremely volatile stock or a lottery ticket. Can you use it like money? Yes Is there any reason to use it like money? Not really, not even among other cryptocurrencies.
Depending on which of these aspects of Bitcoin matter to you it will be more or valuable.
I don’t think bitcoin provides much value in itself. Its basically an asset that is hard to make more of, like money or gold, which are also valuable because of this and that gold and specific currencies are relatively widely used.
bitcoin’s supposed added value over money is private digital transactions across the globe in a private way, so that you can send money whoever you want, but it’s not practically private, and has so large operating costs (even just the transaction fee) that it’s not really better than bank transactions.
so in short: its value is in its scarcity, and that you can speculate on it. the other possible advantages are not realized.
since the value is in speculation, the dollar limit is when investors start selling enough of it so that others will do the same out of fear. which is who knows how much. but it’s probably more related to other factors than the dollar value.
Bitcoin specifically? No. It’s a janky prototype that should have been superseded a long time ago.
Crypto in general? Probably something. It’s good for buying and selling illegal things.
Bitcoin has massive value as a tool to transfer money, anonymously, and through borders effortlessly. Its extremely valuable for money laundering, scamming, stealing, and dodging tariffs or raising money (see how much crypto is stolen by north Korea)
No
Paper money isn’t worth anything innately. Gold isn’t either. Not diamonds. Nothing has innate worth except food, air, drinking water, and possibly shelter.
Gold and diamonds have intrinsic value
Gold is needed for computer parts, and diamonds are used for cutting
They are more than just shiny
Their value will “never” hit 0 (Bitcoin would be worthless without gold for computers)
Yes, we could find substitutes in the future, but for the substances to not be useful somehow is so low and would have to be an apocalyptic scenario. And in an apocalypse, gold could even be worth more.
…Except that gold, like the dollar, and like bitcoin, has the value it does because people believe it does. Sure, gold’s a great semiconductor. But if that was all we used it for, the price of gold would be a tine fraction of what it is. Diamonds are great as abrasives and in certain cutting applications, but that’s all synthetic now. Natural diamonds only have high value because of artificial scarcity and advertising.
But if that was all we used it for, the price of gold would be a tine fraction of what it is
That’s intrinsic value.
Yes.
But many people–and I’m not saying you do this–but many people get gold, silver, and diamonds confused, and think that their intrinsic value is linked to their perceived value. does that make sense?
(Paper) money is practically actually valuable because you need it to pay taxes. Gold, diamonds etc you could do without. Of course there is more nuance but taxes force people to value currency and therefore also accept it from others (because you need some of it or you go to jail), which gives currency the circular value.
It’s not valuable, it’s a convention. You may as well use conch shells or Bitcoin. Don’t matter what it is, it doesn’t have value until we all agree it has value
So you know how fiat currency is backed by nothing more than the fact the government says it’s valuable and we all agree to that? Crypto is sort of like that except without the government bit
Fiat currency is backed by taxation, which can only be paid in the very same currency that the taxer prints.
📺 Your Taxes Pay for NothingYup, all boils down to faith in the currency. For something like the dollar, it’s backed by faith in the US government. For something like Bitcoin, it’s backed by faith in the resilience of the blockchain and the value buyers place on it. Emperor Norton minted his own currency which was accepted all around San Francisco based purely on the fact that people accepted it.
It’s a lot more backed by the faith that if you don’t manage to get some you go to jail.
But I can buy anything with fiat curency and with bitcoin I can basically buy nothing. And I never will be able probably, bitcoin is too slow to be used as an actual curency to buy common things like groceries
Bitcoin is pretty fast. You get 5 confirmations in about an hour. If you compare it to credit cards, the equivalent thing (clearing and settlement) happens in about 2-7 days.
Thing that matters to the merchant is a bit different than the thing that happens with the customer. You can build similar layers in front of the customer for crypto payments that make it look like the payment went through in a second.
bitcoin is a bad currency but you absolutely can buy legal things. like, check shopinbit. there’s also a similar website that buys the thing for you from amazon
Beanie babies 2.0.
At its core, it represents an irreversible proof of digital existance. Blockchain is the only technology that can do this, and it makes it more valuable than you’d think.
Bitcoin itself has first mover advantage, and that keeps it on top. It’s hard to point to any particular feature of bitcoin that warrants this first place position, aside from pure decentralization of holdings.
The irreversibility of blockchain transactions is very underrated to most of us, but think about it… no bank or government, even with military involvement, can reverse a transaction or seize assets. For most of us in nations with sophisticated financial infrastructure and govt, this doesn’t sound like a big deal, but for the majority of the world, this is a huge deal.
It also represents freedom from fiat. Since the beginning of currency govts have used it as a means to extract wealth from the populace. Printing, confiscating, and controlling as it pleases them. We’ve historically used gold to hedge against this, and there’s even instances in history where govts have devalued and confiscated gold as a means of supporting itself. Bitcoin brings all the freedom of gold, with all the benefits of the digital world.
Awesome. I appreciate this perspective.
Can you dig a bit deeper into the benefits for normal people that an irreversible transaction offers? To me, this seems like a detriment. Like, if I sell something on eBay and it turns out to be broken or fraudulent, PayPal can reverse the charges for me. Actually, I have a real world example of buying sneakers online that never arrived and had my credit card reverse the charges for me.
So PayPal or your bank are third parties that you have to trust will act honourably.
You can still do that with cryptocurrency and use third parties or dapps with escrow style protection features but you can also do direct transfers, without any third party involvement and no protection, like giving cash to someone requires no third party approval and there are no protections.
It’s not a benefit in the example that you provide. It’s a benefit to the seller for sure. For that type of transaction it benefits you with lower prices due to retailers not having fraudulent sales result in chargebacks. This is the reason you’ll see it adopted by merchants (not Bitcoin, but stablecoins on Solana or Eth L2s).
The benefits on the consumer side are around freedom of money - no seizures, no bank runs, no fraudulent cc charges (but added key management risk), no inflation (eh, but added volatility rn), instantaneous worldwide transfers (that’s where you see the remittance market buying in). Also new decentralized financial markets which bring better yield rates than banks.
It’s a little more gray on the consumer side and I would expect services built on top to add insurance, escrow, and custody (exchanges and banks) type features.
The other place it’s making waves is with larger amounts of money. Hedge funds, venture capital, and higher net worth individuals. It makes moving capital around much easier.
So in that realm we see growth with it making its way into traditional markets - like stocks and commodities. Instantaneous settlement in this world is huge. Stock transactions can take anywhere from a day to 3 days in the tradfi system. On-chain we make atomic, irreversible, censorship resistant transactions instantly.
You can already see companies launching stock backed tokens on chains now. Just a couple weeks ago StockX went live on Solana. Anyone can buy US stocks, anonymously, with no onboarding requirements. This disrupts global capital markets.
So in summary, the benefits down at the consumer level focus more around access to new, secure products for earning yield and availability of alternative inflation-free assets with instant availability.
Also, privacy. This world really re-enables us as consumers to have some financial privacy. That’s another whole rabbit hole tho and my thumbs are tired.
I guess it’s more useful as a store of wealth than a currency. Like gold it can be transferred irreversibly between owners, except now the transfer and storage costs are significantly reduced and it’s available to the general public as an option. The key benefit is the use of the internet as a transfer medium, you no longer have to rely on a third party to facilitate the exchange, which for most large transactions means paying someone to transport it and store it (lawyers, guards, banks).
It does allow for easy exchange for all users, including criminals, but generally using it for crime is a terrible idea, as every member of the network can see all transactions. Bitcoin is more of a notice board about what addresses have what amounts, and if you can prove to the people that post on the notice board that you control an address, you’re allowed to spend the contents and update everyone of where you sent it.
People came up with an idea for how to do chargebacks, it’s called an escrow service, a third party that holds the money until all parties have had a chance to raise a dispute and confirm they are happy. This is the same as how PayPal works, trust based on reputation of the escrow provider, and the escrow provider is payed a fee. It’s just that now with bitcoin, you also have the option to complete the transaction online without an escrow provider, the same as you would in person with cash.
